more on swine flu

[graciem]

i am booked to have swine flu jab this afternoon, am 35 wks pg. had jus got my head round the idea of having it when another pg lady at play group said she wasnt having it cause they dont know the efect it could have on the baby a few yrs down the line ( like the link with mmr and autism). now i dont know what to do. please help.

The MMR and autism study has been widely discredited but still lives in people's minds for some reason. I would ignore the play group lady.

hi miia, i know the mmr and autism link has been discredited but i do feel she has some point as in they dont know what efects this vacine could have.

What exactly worries you? The virus itself (which is dead in the vaccine) or the other ingredients in the vaccine?

i think its just the fact that they dont know enough about it yet, like future effects. i may be stupid but ive spoken to gp, mw, and health visitor who all advise havin it but i just dont know.

I am 32 weeks pregnant and had mine 2 weeks ago. It is such a relief that i have had especially as a young mum in our town has just died of swine flu. My main thoughts were with my daughter i already have, I didnt want to be at risk of getting it and dying and leaving her and also if she gets it i wouldnt have been able to look after her. I am glad i got it x

I don't know if this helps you but I am getting mine done tomorrow (I am 20 weeks).

I have been reluctant just because I have never needed a flu jab before and I have never even had flu before (which makes me think I must have a fairly good immune system). I am also starting to wonder if the swine flu threat has been exaggerated.

However, I must admit that this flu does seem to pose a threat to pregnant women and "the powers that be" seem very keen for us to get this jab.

Also, I know a paedeatric nurse who said that the consultants at her hospital seem very concerned about the increase in children and pregnant women needing hospital treatment - worries about lack of intensive care beds and respirators as we go further into flu season.

The "autism link" is related to the thiomersal in the Pandemrix rather than the other ingredients.

There is an unproven study (not the widely discredited one) which suggests that there may be a link between mercury and autistic spectrum disorders where there is a genetic predisposition to these conditions. Please note, this is an UNPROVEN study, which concludes that there is no proof of a link, but which does put these stories out there. I'll see if I can find the article (its a full-on medical journal piece) and post it.

Why not ask for the thiomersal-free Celvapan vaccine?

On the mercury note though the amount of mercury is really, really tiny - about the same what you get from a can of tuna.

I can understand the worries but for me one of the reasons why I got the vaccine was to actually protect the baby... I found out today that my workmate's son is in hospital with suspected swine flu.

It is a worry, especially as it's a new vaccine. I can't help but feel a little bit like a "guinea pig". I have my SF vaccination booked for Thursday though, and am 26+4 weeks pg. The two reasons I have decided to go for it are that a) there is a clear risk to pregnant women and their babies from swine flu and b) the vaccine is prepared in the same way as the seasonal flu vaccine, and pregnant women have had seasonal flu vaccines for years without significant proven risk.

I second what flybynight says. UNPROVEN. The goverment and WHO have never allowed or funded the study into the link. That way they get to say, unproven link as if they CANT prove it instead of NOT ALLOWED to prove it.

Imagine the compensation and up roar.

Also, 'not being live' means next to nothing.
What do they use to kill off the live part of the vaccine - famaldahyde, a cancerous substance banned in america.

Look, to give you an idea of how shit our goverment is when it comes to money making vaccines.....

In 2000 the EVANS/MEDEVA UK polio vaccine which was made from UK calf blood between 1985-2000 was withdrawn becuause of contamination with CJD (mad cows disease). The vaccine continued to be made throughout the 90's contravening the European Union guidlines even though CJD had been known about since the 80's.

This is one of thousands of feck ups/cover ups our goverment have been involved in.

Mercury was banned in every country in the world in vaccines and britain continued to use it 12 YEARS after everyone else - why? because it was so much cheaper to use it and pro long shelf life.

Nobody likes to hear this stuff, it makes more sense to listen to your GP. Who gives your GP their information? WHO (world health organisation) who make multi millions from vaccines.

Im not saying there's anything wrong with THIS vaccine. Nobody knows, I just wish everyone would look beyond the doctors leaflet before trusting it.

had my jab a few weeks ago. all fine. am 24 wks pg ... i think
what a lot of people dont realise is
in usa all pg women are routinely vaccinated against seasonal flu.
also the swine flu vaccine is just a variation on the standard seasonal flu jab - ie its not a NEW vaccine therefore should be safe enough.
i agonised over whether to have it and decided that it would be silly of me not to proctect myself and my unborn by not having it.
yes, there are risks with everythign we do in life but, you have to try and keep things in perspective and not be influenced by scaremongerers.

But fomaldahyde is found in cigarettes too - these aren't things that human beings haven't already been putting in their bodies for years. Not saying that they are GOOD for us but maybe not more harmful than contracting swine flu when pregnant?

yes, probably passionbery (thank god someone knows how to spell it) . I just want people to know the facts as there is a lot of have facts floating about. Nobody's fault, It just annoys me that people are only given the half of it.

Im honestly not saying it is not safe, Im sure all these babies will be fine.

I am also 24 weeks and had it 2 weeks ago.

Like mummytopebs, my first concern is the risk to me of getting swine flu, for the sake of the DS I already have. I am worried in case it has an effect on the baby but that was only part of what I had to weigh up. My decision was also influenced by the medical people I've talked to - the majority advised it. I am worried but also relieved - especially when DP came down with something this week - probably not SF as it turns out, but I realised I did want to be protected.

If there is a risk to unborn babies, all the evidence and past experience of other flu jabs suggests it's very small. But the increased risk to pg women from swine flu is definitely real and serious.

Loads of people are strongly anti-vaccination and not always with a sound scientific basis, and you will always come across them. I'm not arguing that you should have it, it's your choice of course, but for me it helps to look at the real scientific evidence as much as possible.

oops, half facts!

whensmydayoff:

"Also, 'not being live' means next to nothing.
What do they use to kill off the live part of the vaccine - famaldahyde, a cancerous substance banned in america."

I don't think you are really dealing in facts here. Whatever they use to kill it, if it's dead it's dead so how does that mean "next to nothing"? The fact that the virus is dead (or otherwise inactivated) is extremely important in making a vaccine.

"Mercury was banned in every country in the world in vaccines and britain continued to use it 12 YEARS after everyone else - why? because it was so much cheaper to use it and pro long shelf life."

No, Thiomersal, which contains mercury, is still used in many vaccines including in the US. This "fact" is also wrong.

Another factual error by whensmydayoff:

"Nobody likes to hear this stuff, it makes more sense to listen to your GP. Who gives your GP their information? WHO (world health organisation) who make multi millions from vaccines."

The WHO is a specialised agency of the United Nations. It isn't a pharmaeutical company making millions from vaccines! It simply acts as a coordinating body on international health issues.

Isn't thimerosal used in some forms of anti-d......so women who are rhesus negative may have already unknowingly have experienced it while pregnant though I don't see a million threads on mumsnet warning pregnant women of this "danger"......

Seriously though, I don't see the point of trying to scare the pants off each other with predictions of doom and gloom about what "might" happen if you take the vaccine and government/drug companies trying to make a fast buck at the expense of thousands of unborn babies (which is a ridiculous suggestion as it wouldn't actually be cost effective!!!).....it sounds to me like a lot of scared people trying to justify their choice not to have the vaccine, as opposed to people being supportive of one another on a forum.

It's a personal decision and while it is helpful to share our worries and stresses, a lot of the postings on some of these threads are not particularly helpful - though it is very addictive to read them....I might need to disconnect my PC to wean myself off as its all doing my head in!!!!

I dont have time to go through all the names so here's a quickie

I got the ingredients from the slips that go inside the boxes of vaccines in the fridge at my doctors. It's in there trust me. It IS banned in America.

Mercury has made it's way in in different forms yes but if you read 'The truth about Vaccines' it tells you that when every other country made a point of not using it, Britain ignored it.

No not all vaccines are 'killed' MMR is still live.

They started killing off the virus in vaccine because the live one actually caused Polio to spread and the consequences were a lot worse than the real virus.

It won't work with MMR though.

Im not saying thimersol, mercury etc definitely causes X, Y and Z. Im pointing out there hasn't been enough research to weigh up the effects.

Information on the WHO is also in 'The Truth About Vaccines' and how it works along with the government and it's vested interests.
NO, IT'S NOT THE ONLY BOOK IVE READ!!

Look, girls come on here and they want to know more about the vaccine and the ingredients. Then when people give them any information they have, everyone goes crazy and accuses you of scaremongering for fun.

So, is it to be that when anyone asks about vaccine, if you know something or have read something you should not give that information over because it's better not to know????

I find that hard to take in.

Im not having fun at the OP's expense. I happen to have my opinion and I am actually really worried that the vaccine might do some damage to these babies. I worry when my PG friends get it. I don't tell them though
BECAUSE UNLIKE THE OP, THEY DIDN'T ASK FOR AN OPINION ON IT.
I feel sorry for everyone incl myself in this horrible situation and the fact remains - we don't know. That in itself scares me.

Some people like comforting words and hear what they want to hear in order to relax.

Some people want as many facts as humanly possible. It doesn't make you a scaremongerer.

MadameDuBain I swithered about getting the vaccine for the same reason too. I have a DS and it's more important to me that im here for him so I totally get where you are coming from.

I now declare myself void from swine flu posts -

I get it, nobody wants to know anything horrible, they need comforting words and reassurance. Im not being sarcastic although it sounds it. I think we all work diffrently.

whensmydayoff, there is no problem with sharing your opinions, of course not. it was just that you stated several things and said they were facts, when they weren't. Even if you have read something somewhere, it doesn't necessarily make it a fact - some sources are more reliable than others, and when it comes to vaccines, there are pages and pages of scaremongering nonsense on the web that are not based on valid evidence.

Of course that doesn't mean all vaccines are safe, and it is absolutely true that governments have been involved in health-related cover-ups. But if that's the point you are making, it doesn't help to state things that aren't true.

BTW, Thimerosal is NOT banned in the US - it is banned in the use of "over the counter" medications as a build up in your system over time can be toxic. It is not used in childrens vaccines in the US, due to the adverse publicity brought about by the (UNPROVEN) MMR scandal, to ensure that people still got their kids vaccinated and to save the lives of all the under 1's who were catching measles from older children who had not been vaccinated. Thimerosal is widely used in Europe in a variety of vaccines, and it is also used in some forms the anti-d vaccine that is routinely given to pregnant women who are rhesus negative after procedures such as a CVS.

On a positive note, it is thought that an adjuvinated vaccine is more effective in protecting against mutations of swine flu.

Finally - the reason that most governments across the world are keen to vaccinate, and are rolling out the vaccination programmes across the population (despite a declining number of cases) is to try and halt the opportunity for the disease to mutate. At the moment, the infection is fairly mild for the majority of people that catch it, but the more widespread is becomes, the more opportunity it has to mutate into something more dangerous, hence the drive to try and stamp it out and limit its spread. It is NOT just a ploy to try and make money for drug companies. Yes, we pregnant women who are accepting the vaccine are to a certain extent "guinea pigs" but swine flu isn't going away any time soon and if the virus mutates and there is still a high degree of cynicism regarding the effectiveness and safety of vaccines, as a nation we may find ourselves in quite a scary situation - and beleive me, our already stretched NHS has niether the staff or funding to cope with a catastrophe on that scale. Be grateful that our governement has got this under control even though at times it may seem they are trying to crack a walnut with a sledge hammer. I for one am very grateful for modern medicine as I would hope most of the pregnant women are on this site who have survived dangerous pregnancies or conceived against all odd, THANKS to modern medicine and technology.

OK - rant over......

fORMALDAHYDE - Is banned in the US. I wasn't talking about mercury

I didn't get ant info from the net I promise you that.

I got most of it from

THE TRUTH ABOUT VACCINES by Richard Halversen

VACCINES AND BEHAVIOURAL PROBLEMS IN CHILDHOOD - Viera Scheibner (Principal research scientist)

and (sadly ) a 4 hour seminar by Viera Scheibner herself at our local Uni.

I never said I knew it all.
I studied vaccines a bit not because I wanted to believe in conspiracy but because I was PG for the first time 3 years ago and because my cousin was paralysed from the neck down and made blind by a rubella jab at 16 (was healthy).

Im not a crack pot!!

I thought people would like to know this stuff at a time like this to take into consideration before making their decisions.
Yes, these doctors and scientists could be wrong but I felt there was too much compelling evidence and having seen vaccine damage destroy my cousin, Im probably more likely to believe it.

Right, I can't stop myself peaking in, I have to im getting obssessed. Im sticking to posts about leaky boobs and maternity jeans from now on.....Im not looking here again!!!

I am 23 weeks and think I have swine flu. I am furious that I have not been able to get the vaccine (my surgery clearly has a lot of high risk patients). I have a friend who is an OB in Oxford who says they currently have 2 women in intensive care with swine flu, neither of whom have any underlying health problems. I would not take that chance given the choice. Being admitted to intensive care is worse for you and the baby then any potential side effect from the vaccine.

Given how awful I feel I suspect I have no choice and will just have to look after myself the best I can. My vaccination appt is on 11 Dec (only achieved after much fighting). I wish I had your opportunity.

whensmydayoff - Viera Scheibner!...well enough said - but if you are going to quote her to other MNets, they should be aware that Scheibner (like most anti-vaccinators) is not qualified to making those accusations. She never finished her medical training, was primarily a paleontologist, and did not have her "findings" verified by peer-review. I prefer to follow the overwhelming evidence in favor of vaccinations that has been peer-reviewed by doctors of the AAP.....and as for Richard Halverson - well he does a nice little line of business out of Harley Street charging extortionate rates for separate MMR shots....

Lets not turn this into an anti vaccine debate as it is misleading to the women reading these posts.