DOPPLER USERS - how much is too much?

[TJuice]

googling doppler use (or abuse) doesn't come up with anything very conclusive.

being a paranoid first-timer who mc-ed last year, i am in love with mine and listen to the heartbeat at least a couple of times a day.

has anyone heard anything about this being bad for the baby?

thanks

tjuice

Never heard of them being overused, i listen to my twins most nights, its so reassuring. How far gone are you?? By the time you start to feel them move you won't need to dopple so much - know i didn't with my first dd.

Congrats by the way

i am 18wks 3 days with my first, so waiting for the first movements . . .
thanks for that!

It said something about that on watchdog the other night apparently as someone rang me and told me. Mine doesn't work anyway so it doesn't matter to me.

i got mine yesterday and i'm only 11 weks so cant hear a thing ! i dont think there is anything conclusive about how much is to much, i'll try and limit myself to once a day though i think

i didnt hear mine until 13 wks, at 11 wks i heards nothing, then at about 12 i heard whooshing placenta. Remeber early on to listen right down low, much lower than you would expect

thanks for that. i just spent a while googling and think that i will try and be more "prudent", which means very short spells, less than 3 mins, 2 or 3 times a week. Until I feel kicks . . .

Try to use it as little as possible. All dopplers use ultrasound, and as a sonographer I know doppler actually uses more power than 'ordinary' scans. With all scans we turn the power down using a principle 'ALARA' or as low as reasonably achievable- i.e. as low as we can whilst still getting the information medically needed. The justification for us actually doing scans at all is that there is a medical need. In my opinion, I think its scary that you can buy these things for home use. At the end of the day, ultrasound (at low power levels) has only been around for 30 years. The power levels used today are hugely higher than was around 5 yrs ago, let alone 10 so there is no way of telling what the long term effects of this might be.
HOwever, living in the real world, you've bought it and when you've got it around, you can't help but use it when your anxiety levels are up (speaking as someone who works with ultrasound machines and couldn't help scanning myself in the early days- I KNOW I shouldn't!).
TBH, just try to use it when you are soo anxious you really can't function.Then, only listen long enough to know you've heard the right thing. Then stop. You've allayed your worries, and hopefully when you start to feel bump move you'll be able to stop using it.
Oh, and as a really horrible and finally, when you CAN'T find the heartbeat it doesn't neccesarily mean the worst. You might have a long wait to get a midwife to hear the heartbeat or a scan in hospital- and all might still be fine, but YOU will have put yourself through the worst few hours of your life. Trust me, its the pits.
Round here the midwives are advised NOT to listen for the heartbeat until after the anatomy check. the reason being, if they can't get it for any reason all that does is worry you, then increases the demand for short notice scans (which can be like hens teeth) which might actually be a long wait-not fair on anyone esp. when its avoidable anxiety (from the hospitals point of view).
Sorry, its an epic, but HTH,
mumofk

Hi..I really dont want to panick anyone and it might not be related but I used a doppler with DD2. It claimed you could hear the heartbeat from 10 weeks and sure enough I could. I was using it quite a bit almost every day. On the day of my 12 week scan, my waters partially burst and I nearly lost DD. I bled for 6 weeks and as a result she lost her right hand although she was fine in every other way.

I do sometimes wonder if the pressure I was putting on my womb daily led to some kind of weakness. It may not be related but I have had 2 healthy pregs including this one and not used doppler this time!

I would just say be careful and limit the time spent.

Horseshoe - how horrible. But sure how a doppler would have caused that but sorry to hear your tale

Worzsel - at your stage you need to be right down in your pubic hair to get anywhere. But don't worry if you can't.

Tjuice - As others have said once you start feeling regular movement you won't want to use it so much - also you get more proficient so a ten second look will find the heartbeat, reassure you and you can turn it off.

horseshoe, what a traumatic thing to happen.

well, my dp who is a junior dr has spent some time researching today and basically came to the same conclusion as you mumofk

i think we will try to just chill as much as we can and only use it maybe once a week for a short period.

i hope i haven't done any damage
only had it since last wednesday . . .

I had one and used it from around 9 weeks onwards. I was able to locate the heartbeat easily until around 14 weeks, when the baby got a bit harder to "find"!
I had a LOT of unexplained bleeding (and have had this in a previous pregnancy too - so don't think the bleeding was related to using the doppler), and was very anxious to find out if the pregnancy was continuing.
I wasn't able to get early scans frequently as I would ring the "early pregnancy unit" and find they were fully booked. I was never offered blood tests to see if my hormone levels were rising either!
The only way I could quickly check if the baby was "still with me" or not was to use my own doppler. It was a HUGE relief for me to hear the heartbeat (only for a few seconds then I'd switch the monitor off!).

I did realise that the doppler was more than just a "microphone" and was using some sort of "sonic" technology. I never knew it would have been more powerful than a scanner though! I thought with it only transmitting sound and not images it would have been less powerful! I think the packaging should contain some sort of warning or info about this point!

From 14 weeks onwards, when I began feeling regular movements (this is my 4th baby) I have stopped using it altogether.
I did realise in the later weeks I was using it that the baby was "moving" away from the sound and I was concerned if the baby could "feel" it working (I was not pressing hard EVER, just lightly touching the surface of my skin with it).

I am now 21 weeks pregnant, and happy to be expecting what appears (as far as scans can tell - a healthy baby boy).

Horseshoe - what a traumatic thing to happen in pregnancy, and how wonderful your pregnancy was able to "recover" and continue after that! AMAZING!

mumofk- I feel totally panicked now. I have had six miscarriages and have had regular growth scans in this pregnancy, I am now 19+6 weeks. My last scan at 17 weeks was fine. I have a hand held doppler which I have used everyday since 11 weeks only for a minute or two. Do you think I may have damaged my baby?

I'm sure that if there was any actual evidence atall that dopplars or US scans in general did any damage they would limit them. I spent ages in hospital with my daughter wired up to ctg machines and could use a dopplar when i wanted and that was on top of the scans and plenty of pregnant mums of multiples or otherwise complicated pregnancies have a multitude of scans thoughout their pregnancies and are fine !

I think as with anything in life that moderation is the key

I'm not going to try still next week when i'll be 12 weeks and hopefully i'll find it then

Worzsel-I think you are probably right. Does anyone have any research on this please?

Hi everyone. I was considering buying a doppler and remember reading an earlier thread on here. Decided against it in the end but have managed to find the thread for you. Sorry...I am rubbish at this so don't know how to copy it across but it is on the next page.It was posted Monday 21st Jan at 21:47:13. The title of the thread is 'anyone not having scans'. There is a link in the thread on page 3 of 4 called 'Doppler info from the Cochrane review'. Hope it helps.

Hi again, the problem with medical ultrasound and potential damage is there aren't any large scale randomised research- the 'ethics people' decided long ago (by early 1980s) there was a presumed benefit to ultrasound ( without any research to back it up) and as such it would be unfair to expect women who would normally be offered scans to refuse them. With this type of thing, obviously you would know whether you've had a scan ( can't do a placebo pill for a scan!). I'm not 'into' research so wouldn't even try to start evaluating it all. The point of large scale studies is the results are percieved as more valid and easier to apply to a large population- like all the UK rather than just one hospital, one county, etc.
The other huge issue with ultrasound is if it definately caused reproducible harm immediately it is likely that would have been identified already- which is why when I'm asked about an early pregnancy scan being safe I feel confident saying 'there are no proven harmful effects of ultrasound,it is routinely used in EP, but I keep everything turned down to minimise any effect ultrasound might have'.
What we just don't know about is any long term effects. There has been a little research suggesting it affecting left/right handedness, but as with anything long term, there are so many variables its hard to pin down exactly what is the cause- and I remember reading a flurry of papers after that criticising the research methods, finding no difference in R/L handedness, etc (makes me think how long it took to prove smoking really did cause lung cancer).
I do think its amazing how much money is pumped into providing scans, updating expensive equipment- NICE guidelines saying everyone should be offered 2 scans, health care commision marking down departments that don't do this, when there isn't the good quality research to back it up. Also, so many people make a living out of ultrasound that all the larger research studies out there will be funded by teams that have a vested interest in proving how safe and useful ultrasound actually is. Over the last 5-10 yrs I've been to quite a few study days demonstrating research (funded/sponsored by machine manufacturers)about 3D/4D- they came up with the technology ages ago and have been trying to get it into everyday clinical use since.I don't use it- I don't need to use as 2D (and the lower power levels, shorter scanning times involved) still provide me with the information to provide a diagnosis I am confident in- and our managers can't justify paying for all that technology!
SOrry, that's my crack at the research!
Imopop- I'm sorry you're panicked, I can't answer if you've damaged your baby, I don't think anyone can.I think no to anatomical damage, but no idea about long term brain stuff- see above. Your care providers have felt it worthwhile offering you regular scans already (lots of ladies out there will be envying you!) now you're getting further on do you think you'd be comfortable NOT listening everyday? Have you been listening every day because you really feel things have gone wrong, or because it's there, easy and available? There isn't any point of worrying about what has been (just like if you've had alcohol, eaten brie, etc) coz there's nothing you can do now to change anything that may or may not have happened- reading this all will probably affect how you feel about regularly using your doppler, and if you still feel comfortable, really need the reassurance, then that is what is best for you.(I had such a horrible week with the guilts after a brie sandwich- took be 2 yrs to get over it but still not forgotten how I expected to mc)
Only you can decide- we can all just offer opinions and you pick out what works for you.
Worszel- the difference between what you can buy to use at home and what is used at a hospital is a midwife or dr in a clinic/hospital should be aware of the benefit vs risk of using ultrasound and have decided in your particular circumstances that the benefits outweigh any risks. At home, I suspect(though have only read the adverts, not the actual instructions you get with it) there can't be a full explanation of potential risks, or the limitations of what is known about ultrasound long term.
I am not currently aware of any research into any long term (i.e 10, 20 yrs down the line) effects on-demand hand held doppler machines have- which, as they haven't been around that long, isn't surprising!
Take care and good luck.
mumofk

hi mumofk

thanks very much for the detailed answers.

its seems that in the absence of absolute scientific proof, its always better to use the precautionary approach.

i must admit, i did have a quick listen today but i got my dp to do it (he is a junior dr and thinks he is a brilliant technician or something) anyway, he found it within a few seconds and then it was off. i actually have my 19 week scan on friday and have wondered recently if i have been feeling the first flutterings of movement (maybe wishful feeling) so i will ease up completely.

anyway, its just cool that you dropped back in to let us know.

there's always something to worry about. i had a little unpasteurised parmesan on my pasta today and am worried. i also use splenda in my tea sometimes . . .
should cleaning products be off the agenda too? ( i think that is definitely wishful thinking!)

Mumofk- I feel I must respond to your email. Yes I am having necessary regular scans due to my history. I dont think other ladies would envy the fact I have had 6 miscarriages or begrudge me for having scans. I have spoken to my some experts in fetal medicine who have informed me the benefits of being scanned regularly far outweigh the risks. We dont know about many things long term all we can do is go on the information and relevant research we are given. I am a healthcare professional myself I think it is dangerous to put your opinions on a website like this where there are many lay people who may become very confused and worried. I appreciate you are doing it with the best of intention and I am not saying you are are incorrect. If you had an idea what it is like to lose 6 babies you may understand why I have needed the reassurance of listening to my babies heartbeat. I hope you are more empathetic to your patients. I dont want to upset you but surely we all come onto mumsnet for support.

imopop- in no way am I insensitive to your obstetric history. However, I am aware of ladies (Rl and here on MN) who have the awful experience of multiple miscarraiges and do not get offered multiple scans in early pregnancy- where I work, even with 6 mc, you would only be offered 1 scan before 16 weeks. That is why I stick with my statement many women would envy you. I'm sorry you feel I'm not supportive, and I take your point about confusing and worrying people- that's why I have taken the time to explain my opinions on the research as someone specifically asked about the research available on this topic. It turned into quite a long post as I couldn't think of a way to be clear and succinct- but the issues raised here are quite complex and difficult to skim over.
And just to reitereate, my last message to you was if you feel that listening in is best for you, then you'll need do it. We all only offer our opinions here for others to evaluate and choose whats right for their circumstances.
Good luck,
mumofk

imopop - so sorry about your miscarriages and fingers crossed for a healthy pregnancy.its difficult to imagine how hard it must be suffering from so much loss.

i have had one miscarriage and for this pregnancy have had scans every two weeks during the first trimester which i thought was brilliant.

after seeing how comforting a doppler could be for me, during this nervy time, i decided to buy one and have been using it. but i started this thread to get some info and opinions on whether there are any risks.

i think mumofk message was unbiased and factual and not in the least bit unempathetic. her stance as an expert was to do it, but not overdo it. her own experience of scanning herself in the early days of her own pregnancy and her brie paranoia shows her empathy to how worrying pregnancy can be.

far from being scaremongering (which some messages on here have been much more worrying) i found her opinion realistic and useful.

TJuice thanks for that.
Mumofk- My scans are not just for reassurance they are for growth scans because I have a clotting disorder which could result in a premature baby or worse a stillborn, so I don't think others would envy that. I dont think we will agree. I still stand by what I have said and find your response insensitive. As you have no clue about my obstetric history. I have used mumnet for support not for medical advice.

If there is a medical need to have scans done...then like anything in pregnancy...I think you have to outweigh the benefits with the negatives same as you would with anything. I had loads with DD2 because of the problems with bleeding etc....

My only reservations with dopplers is that in general, people dont know what they are doing. I personally, thinking they were safe....used mine constantly....sometimes for 20minutes at a time/ 3-4 times a day. I was applying pressure to my womb and most of the time I did not know where I was pressing. I do wonder if all of that added pressure and stress on my womb made the waters burst. Probably not but the truth remains that I did not know what I was doing and so to use the doppler to the extent that I was was just silly on my part.

mumofk out of interest is there a diffence between having internal and external scans, saftey wise?