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Talk about every stage of pregnancy, from early symptoms to preparing for birth.

Breastfeeding, expressing and bottles question

18 replies

SunnySideUp2020 · 15/12/2020 09:51

I am currently reading some books being FTM.
Hoping to breastfeed my daughter when she is born. But was also hoping to express so that DH can feed her too, get to bond a bit more and i get a little time to do other things like sleep.

But to my surprise, i read that best is to NOT introduce bottles before 6 weeks 😳

What did/would YOU do?

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wimbler · 15/12/2020 09:57

As long as breastfeeding establishes well, I personally see no issue with introducing a bottle early. we started at 1 week after the breastfeeding consultant said it would be ok. One bottle a day. then we got lazy and stopped and she wouldn't take a bottle again for another 6 months which was a nightmare. If you plan on introducing one keep it regular and the same time everyday (evening feed would be my recommendation) and stick at it!

If swapping the odd breastfeed for bottle, remember you still need to pump at the time the normal feed would be to keep your supply regular

Sanch1 · 15/12/2020 10:42

I introduced a bottle at 2 weeks with both mine, one bottle a day, usually 10pm ish. Took a few days but soon got used to it. You need to keep it up though every day. Many people I know haven't kept it up and then baby does take the bottle. It didn't interfere with breast feeding or latch or anything like that.

LittleTiger007 · 15/12/2020 10:45

I appreciated this question as a ftm... thanks for these answers.

OnlyFoolsnMothers · 15/12/2020 10:47

My first I didn’t introduce a bottle until 6wks, my second (currently 5wks) had a bottle on her third day old, alongside breastfeeding, as she was jaundice and we wanted to flush it out with increased feeding. Tbh it’s been fine, she has one bottle a day still and breastfeeds fine. It’s best to breastfeed at night as that helps establish / determine your supply,

If I may suggest, imo, the hardest thing you will find is expressing. The first few wks with a baby are exhausting, if she isn’t on your boob you will want/ need to sleep, shower etc, you may not want to them hook yourself up to a pump.

Scottishskifun · 15/12/2020 10:52

It's not recommended as it can cause confusion and also its a lot easier to get milk from the bottle than it is the breast so some babies then stop suckling as it's harder work which then causes issues with supply.

It does take a while to establish feeding and also supply but reality is a lot of babies get put on feeding plans where your told to do top ups.

I suggest reading up on pace feeding and understanding how to do it - regular breaks don't allow baby to down it etc. We found the mimbie bottles to be fantastic as they were really slow teets compared to all others and made my son latch properly. We were on a feeding plan but even after he would get a bottle of expressed milk.

It's also worth knowing that not all women can express and it is by no means any indication of what your body produces! Lots of women then think they aren't producing enough which is completely incorrect.

I suggest reading Kelly mom website great source of information and also joining a local Facebook breastfeeding support page.

boymum88 · 15/12/2020 11:15

Hi @SunnySideUp2020 their was a post on here earlier about different pumps and breastfeeding, a lot of mum suggested the haakaa, I believe u pop it on to the other breast while little one feeds from the other and it catches the let down

AudHvamm · 15/12/2020 12:40

we introduced a bottle feed at 4 days old. Partner gives it at about 11pm so I can go to bed and get a good chunk of sleep. Baby latched and breastfed well from birth though, which probably helps with maternal/parental stresses about feeding and nipple confusion etc.

I used a Hakka to collect letdown and then to express for about 10 days and then we moved on to formula. The Hakka is great and a low cost investment if you want to try out expressing. I’ve also heard good things about the Elvie (?).

For me, It was fine in the first weekish when I was mostly in bed and could use the Hakka alongside breastfeeding and had a lot of letdown as my milk was coming in but when I started trying to deliberately express I felt it was creating an oversupply and didn’t like having to make time for the extra “feed”.

Using formula hasn’t affected my supply, and baby is very happy breastfeeding the rest of the night/day! Also means I have the option to leave her with partner (I.e for follow up medical appts) without worrying about her getting hungry and he is just as capable of soothing baby/putting her to sleep which is a big load off.

There’s lots of judgement and fear about formula but I’d suggest keeping an open mind in case expressing isn’t working for you. The bottle feed is so useful to get established.

Good luck with it all!

Keha · 15/12/2020 13:26

The wait 6 weeks thing is so it doesn't affect your supply and your baby doesn't get "nipple confusion".

But I also want you to know that my baby had a bottle from a few days old because she had to, and we had no long term issues with bf. I actually found a lot of other people who had introduced a bottle early with no issues. I think it depends on how important breastfeeding is to you and being knowledgeable about it. If bf is really important then maybe wait to introduce the bottle so you have no worries about it impacting. But if you are struggling or less concerned about bf, don't panic about using a bottle earlier than 6 weeks.

physicskate · 15/12/2020 15:16

We waited 6 weeks with dd. And she never accepted a bottle. Not at 6 months when I was ready to throw in the towel. Not at a year when she wouldn't take cow's milk. And not when I finally accepted we were ready to quite bf at 15 months. It caused me a lot of guilt and stress.

I will be forcing hubby to stick at it more (he gave up so so so easily) and starting a bit earlier trying to bottles this time. I felt a huge amount of pressure as I was literally the only way she got any nutrients in the first 6 months (many people feel great about that - I felt trapped).

I'd start introducing a bottle when you think you're ready/ need to. Slowly. Like one a day and then maybe a second a day a couple weeks later. Remember that baby won't have read what you have.

DappledThings · 15/12/2020 15:45

Worked very hard at expressing and getting DS1 ri take a bottle just so I could go to a hen do for the day when he was 5 months. It was tedious, frustrating and a huge amount of work for little return.

With DC2 I just couldn't be arsed even trying. Gave away my pump and everything else, delightedly never had a single bottle to sterilise and all that faff after DC1 turned 1.

For me the amount of work involved in expressing was so much bigger than any benefit it could possibly bring.

MaMaD1990 · 15/12/2020 15:58

Some babies do and some don't, its one of those things you'll need to just try and see what works. One of my friends babies took a bottle and breast from day dot with no issues, another her little one refused a bottle all the way through!

The hardest thing I learnt was that everything with a baby is trial and error so don't get too hung up on doing one thing because its likely the baby will throw that plan out of the window!!

Congratulations and good luck x

EithneBlue · 15/12/2020 16:02

My son is 2 weeks old and has mainly breastfeeding with a little bit of bottled breast milk from my husband. He spent his first 8 days in the NICU so was being tube fed my expressed milk then was breastfed by me during the day and getting bottles of expressed milk at night. No confusion so far: he is feeding well and gaining weight. Even in the NICU there were different attitudes among the nurses about whether it was OK to mix breast and bottle - do what works for you and baby (and be ok with changing the plan) - I will say that my baby had a great latch almost immediately (which I'm told is unusual!) which may have helped us out with this - if you have a baby who struggles to latch you may find swapping between the two more challenging but that would be time to contact somewhere like La Leche :-)

TisTheSeasonToEatLots · 15/12/2020 16:19

I’ve never understood this whole expressing so the dad can “bond” thing. I exclusively breastfed both our children, my children prefer my husband over me these days (they are now 3 and 4) 🤣 so I’m not really sure where this needing to give a bottle to bond thing comes from? My second child was a bottle refuser anyway so it wasn’t even an option with him.

You’ll be much better to stick to exclusively feeding for at least the first 4-6 weeks and then if you really need a break start trying to express. Thing is you still have to sit there with a breast pump to get the milk out which takes longer than feeding and you can’t just completely randomly drop feeds as and when you feel, your boobs will still fill up with milk, so you’ll then need to pump to relieve the pressure. So much faff when your boobs are there and your baby is right there, easier just to feed yourself. Dad can bond anytime until they leave home.

dingledongmerrilymysky · 15/12/2020 17:48

Bonding doesn't need to be over a bottle. Save yourself the hassle of expressing and let DH bond with her by actually spending time cuddling her or waving toys at her with her or giving her a bath etc. He can talk to her and take her for a walk in a sling.

Megan2018 · 15/12/2020 17:51

I couldn’t express a drop so all DD milk feeds have been from the breast, still going at 15 months.
Expressing is such a palaver I’m glad I couldn’t do it. I honestly don’t think it’s worth it, DH bonded perfectly fine without it.

BertieBotts · 15/12/2020 20:58

Several things :)

First of all the main reason the message is not to introduce formula/a bottle too early is the feedback problem. Babies tend to react differently to formula and bottles, and our culture gives a lot of misinformation to new mums. What commonly happens if you give a bottle early is that you see baby guzzling down loads of formula, because of the way that bottles work more than because they actually want to (I'll get back to this) and then falling into a deep, contented sleep (like you feel like doing after Christmas dinner). This then inserts the thought into a lot of mums' heads: He doesn't do that when I breastfeed him. My milk can't possibly be that satisfying. I can't produce that much milk. When I express I hardly get anything. Expressed milk often looks thinner than formula as well, which can be discouraging, even though it's totally fine and normal.

Within the first few weeks, it is also common for babies to go through various feeding behaviours which may not be expected. One of these is cluster feeding (frequent and/or lengthy feeds often lasting for a period of 2-3 hours) and unsettled behaviour which often occurs in the evening, a common time for Dad (or someone else) to want to give a bottle as part of a bedtime ritual. So what you may find is that on the nights you don't give the bottle, you get this cluster feeding and on the nights you do, baby doesn't want to do that. That results in two issues: First, cluster feeding is all part of the process of building up and establishing a good supply. It's good for your breasts to get that feedback and hormonal input of the baby feeding frequently in the evening. If you skip this process regularly, then you can end up with problems with supply. Secondly, psychological barriers again. If you don't know about cluster feeding, you can end up with the impression that your milk isn't enough, the baby is struggling to get what they need or is frustrated at the breast. (It can also make you feel trapped, or frustrated if you're trying to establish a routine for example). This is exacerbated if you have friends and/or family around you who only have experience of bottle fed babies, and they are expressing concern about this not being normal/expected behaviour, worrying about your supply or are concerned that it's a lot of expectation on you. If you're comparing this to bottle feeding, the whole effect is magnified.

With either (or both) of these situations, you can then get into a negative feedback cycle where you worry about your supply so you give formula, giving formula and seeing the reaction to it reinforces those doubts about your supply, meaning you give formula more often, the less you feed from the breast, the less milk your breasts make, exacerbating the supply worries, making the baby express genuine frustration/dissatisfaction at the breast, leading to more doubt/more formula, etc.

If you exclusively breastfeed to six weeks, it's likely you've gone through the worst of the cluster feeding, the first growth spurt and hence you tend to have more confidence in feeding and therefore formula isn't as much of a problem, as long as you don't introduce it too fast which can induce a risk of blocked ducts.

So in reality, does it mean that giving bottles before 6 weeks is definitely going to cause issues? No, not at all. In fact if you're aware of and ready to counteract the psychological factors of comparing breast and bottle feeding and/or you have a good solid understanding of what to expect in terms of cluster feeding, normal breastfeeding behaviour, and the way supply works (in short, feed more = make more, there is no need to wait for a breast to "refill") then the risks of giving bottles interrupting normal breastfeeding behaviour are much lower. Bear in mind that these psychological "risks" can also apply to your partner/mother/MIL/anyone else who is closely involved in the first few weeks and is liable to do this worrying on your behalf (it can be quite frustrating and exhausting to try and solely resist this by yourself, on little sleep, while in a fragile emotional state - thanks hormones - and recovering from childbirth). There do still exist some risks though which I'll explain further below.

Firstly, in the first few days, you're still producing colostrum which is very concentrated but produced in very tiny amounts. The baby's stomach is absolutely miniscule at this point. There are various diagrams around the net, about the size of a newborn's stomach on different days, although apparently this is misleading, but even the sources that argue these diagrams are misleading put the newborn stomach at around 20-30ml, increasing to 100ml by week 4. Giving formula or even expressed milk very early can cause the stomach to stretch/grow faster and/or the baby to expect larger feeds, which is a problem if the baby then wants larger feeds than you're currently able to produce. This happened to me with DS2 as he was in special care and they were giving him 50-70ml on day 2. This then meant I couldn't catch up and we had to top up for a while.

To avoid this issue, I'd suggest waiting for any formula/EBM at all until your mature milk is definitely in, and then preferably limiting amounts to 30ml at first and/or waiting until 2-4 weeks old, to be sure that the baby's tummy is bigger and the amount you're producing is not going to be completely swamped by the amount of formula the baby takes.

Nipple confusion is a funny one - it doesn't seem anywhere near as common as the panic about it would suggest, but nobody really seems to know what it is. I don't think it's actually confusion, because newborns aren't really making decisions, they run completely on instinct at that age. I think what can happen is a combination of the baby wanting more than the mother can produce, the psychological comparison of breast/bottle behaviour, and possibly a flow preference, because bottles are much easier to get milk from than a breast is. In addition there is some question over whether babies can form "bad habits" with a bottle, because the method of latching on to a bottle is very different (much more shallow) than a breast, no matter how much the bottle manufacturer claims that their teat is breast shaped. But I do think this is likely to be a minority of babies and not a significant concern, especially if they latch well normally.

So to come back to the point I said I'd get back to later - bottles in themselves can be a problem, because they are designed specifically to get milk into a baby, rather than to mimic the function of a breast. So far none of the special "breastfeeding friendly" bottles have managed to achieve this, BTW. The main problem is that when we bottle feed, the infant is lying prone (because they can't support their own head) and the bottle is held at an angle which causes gravity to put the weight of the milk into the teat. You may even have been told that this is the correct way to hold a bottle for a baby, because of a belief that air in the teat causes wind in the baby. The problem: A newborn baby has a sucking reflex and a swallow reflex. With a teat in its mouth that is constantly leaking milk (because of gravity) they have no choice but to keep swallowing and keep sucking - they have to make quite a significant movement away in order to stop/break the flow. In comparison, babies at the breast are not positioned on their back, but on their side. The transfer of milk is not aided by gravity, it is sideways, and caused partly by the milk ejection reflex (at the start of the feed) and partly by the vacuum caused by a good latch and the baby's sucking. You may notice when you feed that newborns often, once the initial fast flowing part has disappated have little gaps where they will do suck-suck-suck...wait...suck-suck-suck...wait. Bottle fed babies do not usually do this and this is one reason why bottle feeding is faster.

To avoid these issues is fairly simple - you can do what is called paced feeding. For this you hold the baby pretty much upright in a sitting position, and hold the bottle horizontal. (You can also hold the baby lying sideways facing away from you but this feels less cuddly). Use a small bottle with a narrow teat. Don't worry about air in the teat. Use the slowest flow you can find. You may wish to do this along with small volume of feeds in the first few weeks.

Expressing - it can be hard to fit expressing in during the first few days/weeks. Just feeding the baby to begin with is enough to fit in, let alone trying to find a suitable window to express. I found the best time to do this was when the baby had been asleep for a couple of hours, but most of the time when that happened I was taking the opportunity for some sleep myself! It is normal not to get a huge amount when expressing - 10ml at first is a huge amount, once you've got into a rhythm of it, about a max of 30ml, from both breasts combined. So it can be a lot of work to express just for one feed and in fact it can be more efficient just to do the feed yourself.

On the other hand - is all of this overthinking? Possibly yes. Many people mix breast and bottle right from the start and never have any problems. But I thought it might be interesting to know why a later start is generally advised, and what if anything you can do to avoid the issues that are sometimes caused.

winterbabythistime · 15/12/2020 21:06

I think after 2 weeks would be fine BUT expressing so dh can give a bottle will not give you a break as you still have to do the actual expressing, fathers can also bond very well with nappy changing/ burping / rocking to sleep.
It's up to you of course though.

SunnySideUp2020 · 15/12/2020 21:59

Thanks so much everyone for your answers!!!
Understanding now the different things to consider and try or not to try.
Thanks @BertieBotts for all the useful info.
This is very helpful to know for a ftm ignorant like me!
Makes much more sense now ...

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