Time off work for appointments

[latimer1234]

Hi everyone just looking for some advice really,
I work nightshifts in a care home and was doing 56 hours a week, I've cut my shifts down to 4 night a week due to how rubbish I've been feeling and having that extra day off really makes a difference.
As I work nights my employer is being difficult with me having time off for appointment, I have a midwife appointment on Tuesday but I'm on shift the Monday night and Tuesday night, I've explained that my appointment is at 3pm and I need to attend but because of this I won't be able to make my shift that night as I would have broken sleep and I will be exhausted as I have now got 5 nights in a row and we are short staffed on all of these shifts. I've explained I can work the Wednesday night instead of the Tuesday and basically my manager has said that ' I'm being difficult, and the world doesn't stop because I choose to work nights' 9pm-8am.
I also know she is saying this because she has authorised 4 senior carers to go off on annual leave at the same time which only leaves me as the only senior to cover nights, but to be honest this really isn't my problem due to herself doing the rota.

I completely understand what she is saying but It's frustrating, to get home to try and sleep to get up again at 2pm after little sleep to attend my appointment to come home and to try and rest again to go back to work is draining.
Am I being unreasonable, or can employers do this? Just looking for advice really, I do understand the world doesn't stop because people work nights.

I'm also 12 weeks pregnant.

Thankyou all for reading and I apologise for the long post.

They have to allow you Paid time for appointments regarding pregnancy. Whether midwife, antenatal classes or what. It's on the gov site. If not call in sick lol. Or ring acas for advice x

She's legally obligated to give you the time off, she doesn't have a choice and is choosing to be unprofessional.

but isn't the issue that the appointment time is not actually when the OP is working? she works night shifts and her midwife appt is at 3pm so not when she is due to work but going to the appt would interrupt her sleep. I am not sure whether the paid time off for antenatal appts works in this scenario. phone acas for advice.

OP is it possible for you to move your appt time so that you can attend closer to the end of your shift so as not to disturb your sleep or to go on your day off?

Glitter what time are they obliged to give her?
Op you can't be the first person who has been pregnant on nights. There must be precedent set. It isn't fair to expect you to give up your sleep time I agree

You can sleep 9-2 5 hrs. Get home for 4/5 have a snack and lie down for another few hours.

I'm sorry but I really don't see a terrific issue.

And... They should be doing a risk assessment. Imo that should cover the risk of her working after lack of sleep due to attending an appointment

Presumably she also needs to eat

I'm a little on the fence with this one, and have no idea legally. I work shifts so am fully aware of how difficult night shifts are. When I've had day time apts I've always booked either the latest or earliest apt in day and worked my sleep around it. My employers have been good and allowed me to finish early or start a couple hours late when required but I don't think they're legally obliged to do so. They wouldn't give me a full night off - just like the wouldn't give me a full day for an hours apt - and I wouldn't ask or expect it either.

Could you not ask for an appt for the day you were off? I had a choice off appointments due to my shifts, and partners shifts.

I agree it's a bit ambiguous as you are not actually taking paid time off for the appointment you are asking for a whole night shift off due to the loss of 2 hours sleep.

I'm a little on the fence also.... a junior colleague has just had a lot of time off throughout her pregnancy for medical appointments, she always made an effort to book appointments around her shifts, and would come in late/early if she couldn't get them outside of shifts. She didn't ever have an entire shift off because of an appointment at a time outside of her normal working hours, that doesn't sound reasonable.

I'd suggest aiming to book an early morning appointment you can attend after your shift, or last thing in the afternoon so you can sleep longer first. Even with a 3pm appointment you can sleep 5 hours before hand and have more time to rest after.

You could contact Citizen's Advice for some further guidance - but this page indicates that you are not entitled to paid time off if your appointments fall outside of your working hours.

Hi thankyou for the replies, but unfortunately it's not a case of coming home going straight to sleep and come home and getting back to sleep when you suffer with insomnia, if I could work my sleep around it I would.
I'm not asking for paid time off either, I just wanted to know where I stand with having time off whilst working nights.
You wouldn't expect someone to have an appointment at 3am and ask them to come in at 8.
And unfortunately due to the nature of my job i cannot start later as the medication round needs to be undertaken.
Tuesday are my days off which I haven't been given as she has authorised too many senior carers off which leaves me to do the night shifts.

Can you not try to get your appointments on your day off or as early as possible after you finish your shift

Personally, I don't see any issue with having broken sleep or little sleep, it's how the rest of us cope
You will have to cope with less sleep once you have the baby

Like others, I am on the fence with this one and do think your employer may not be obligated to give you the time off, because the appointment does not fall within working hours.

I cannot imagine that an employer can have any responsibility towards how an employee organises their off-duty time to ensure they get enough sleep.

Is it possible to ask your midwife to reschedule the appointment for a morning one? If it were first thing, you could possible go straight to bed afterwards.

"Tuesday are my days off which I haven't been given as she has authorised too many senior carers off which leaves me to do the night shifts."

Is that part of your contract, or are days off know to be variable, as required? If the former it may be that you can insist on sticking to contract. Would that solve your problem?

I think you might not even be allowed to work night shift while pregnant... especially in the later stages.
Have you had a proper risk assessment?
Did you tell your midwife about your insomnia?
This might help to resolve the issue.

Problem with time off for your appointments is ... is the wording: " .... reasonable time off. " And yours is outside working time.

That's completely irrelevant to my situation now though lol,
Yes when you have an baby you expect broken sleep, but you also don't have work to contend with either.
Quite easy for people to not understand when they're not the one in charge off vulnerable adults whilst distributing medication whilst working on a lack off sleep, and off course I could get an appointment later I would, and off course people wouldn't understand because they clearly don't work nightshifts haha
I would looking for advice regarding time off whilst working nights not about broken sleep when I have a baby to which I clearly expect to happen, I've worked day shifts and it's a damn sign easier to get time off than working nights.

I know when I had my risk assessment.. Working nights was one of the questions.. As Pp said find out about nights working. X

My contact states that Tuesday and Saturday are my days off, this is why it's difficult, if it was a case of coming in later to work off course I would do it, I haven't even had a risk assessment completed yet, and I was kicked in the stomach twice last week which resulted in a trip to the epu
I was looking for advice on time off for appointments whilst working night shifts. Not for people to clearly pass judgement

You wouldn't expect someone to have an appointment at 3am and ask them to come in at 8.

I think almost all employers would. Expecting an employee to turn up for their contracted working hours is not 'asking them to come in' though. The employer is absolutely within their rights to expect employees to come in on time regardless of what they get up to at 3am on their own time.

Insomnia is awful and I sympathise but again it isn't the responsibility of your workplace to cover your insomnia.

I think you need to think very hard about whether this job will be sustainable during a pregnancy - there will be a LOT more insomnia to come and you will be expected to turn up at work on time regardless so you need to think if that's something you can manage.

You should push for the risk assessment
You could refuse to work or ring in sick but I doubt that would go down very well with your manger
Does your contract state that reasonable amount of overtime is expected? Mine does. And I would expect that would cover the manager asking you to fill the gap in the rota

I don't think, unfortunately, that you have a leg to stand on. Your appointment (and this would apply to all of them since you don't work during what would be classed as "office hours") is outside of your contracted working hours. I imagine that this means that it is up to you to organise them at a date/time which does not impact on your scheduled days to work. You are entitled to paid time off for antenatal appointments but only if they fall within your working day. I don't see how you can expect your employer to authorise a whole shift absence due to an appointment which is 6 hours before you are scheduled to work.

Whilst yes, 5 hours sleep is not your usual amount, it is plenty long enough to class you as rested for your shift. Unless your insomnia is treated medically or you already have working agreements in place surrounding it, then I'm afraid it is no more relevant than "the dog/cat/baby/postman woke me up" or other similar events which have potential to break up your sleep.

I'm a police officer who works full shifts, including nights, with a 4 year old at home. I am fully aware of how hard night shifts are on lack of sleep. And yes, I look after vulnerable people, drive cars at high speed going to jobs and have to make life and death decisions most shifts.

My answer still stands, and I don't think that defensive attitude will help when you approach your employer tbh.

"My contact states that Tuesday and Saturday are my days off"

Not sure how that translates into night shift. Does that mean you finish work at 8am on the Tuesday morning and re-start at 9pm on the Wednesday night (e,g. You don't work the shift starting Tuesday night?)
And is that set in stone in your contract? Not flexible, with no variation by either you or your employer in the past?

If that's all the case, then it may be you can state that your contract does not and has never required you to change day off and you are unable to change day off now.
Worth a try, if it's important to you that there is no variation in your contract and (assuming your successful in assuring your contract is upheld) then it would solve your problem re this particular appointment.

"I was looking for advice on time off for appointments whilst working night shifts. Not for people to clearly pass judgement"

I do think people are trying to give you advice ... not pass judgement. The majority seem to advise that they do not think your employer has any obligation to give you extra time off, when your appointment does not fall in working time. I understand that's not what you want to hear, but I don't think it's judgemental of posters to express that opinion.

Would it be possible for you to explain to your midwife that you work nights and ask that (for the sake of your sleep) can all appointments be scheduled for first thing in the morning?

OP I'm also an insomniac. I regularly exist on five hours sleep. Sometimes when working to deadlines I might work until 1.30, sleep 2.30-6.30 and be at work by 8.

A very good friend of mine was the head of midwifery at a teaching hospital. When mat leaves were 6 months. She has assisted CSections at where the obs registrar has been more pregnant than the woman having the section.

Many many mothers are back at work when their babies are 3/4 months old. Many many mothers don't even tell their employers they are of until 16 weeks.

I appreciate pregnancy can be worrying and exciting at the same time but I really don't think attending a 3pm apt when you are doing night shifts is unreasonable.

Can you change your appt to 1st thing in the morning after you finish work?