Has birthing gotten longer and harder over the decades?

[emonslemons]

Do you have any stories of mothers, aunties, grandmothers and how their births went.......I don't know how true it is but many of the women I have spoken to from the last generation say they had much quicker and easier births!
This has always fascinated me! And I wonder why their experiences seem so different......admittedly most women I talk to have been middle eastern although my own mother had a much quicker first birth than me and she's English.

Both my grandmothers had babies who were born alive and died within hours. No-one knew (or was ever told) why with either. Both were the guts of 70 years ago. We presume now it was an infection in both cases. My mother's father telegrammed his family to tell them his first-born was a son, went home to change, went back to the nursing home where he was met on the door step by the porter asking him what he wanted done with the body. Neither of them ever got over it.

My father's mother had a baby girl who died at 36 hours old. She never got over it even though she went on to have two sons, seven years apart with multiple MCs - we only know now after my difficulty in conceiving that there's a clotting disorder in the family that likely contributed to that.

My mother was shaved, enema'ed and episiotomied for two out of her three births (my brother didn't wait for the formalities to be concluded before he arrived ) and the really interesting thing is that midwives of her generation were horrified by my third degree tear a couple of years ago! If they had "let" that happen they would have been "hauled up in front of the master of the hospital." I think there may be a connection between birth injuries now and more medical management in the middle of the last century.

I was born in the National Maternity Hospital in Ireland where apparently the concept of "managed labour" was developed and was rolled out worldwide. I live in the UK but talking to friends at home, labour is definitely more managed than it is here - although I think that might be as many of my friends have opted for a consultant led approach. They also tend to stay in hospital for longer. One of my friends and I had a light bulb moment when discussing my day three meltdown with DD1 a while ago (it was epic) - she was still in hospital at that stage, and not crying on her own sofa .

My mum had the whole enema, shave and episiotomy thing in the 70s with both of us, but she still calls our births 'straightforward' - apart from the fact that my dad passed out both times. The first time he knocked one of his front teeth out on the way down, so ended up bleeding and needing more attention than my mum for a little while. In my family (huge!), most women report relatively straightforward births, although all have torn or had epis and stitches. We're quite small in general too, most babies no heavier than 7lbs, lots in the upper 5lbs.

I feel we're part of a lucky generation. There seems to be a lot of intervention in births I hear about outside of my family - nearly all the women at my aquanatal class have ended up with C sections for example - but I wonder how many women and children would have died without these. It's great that we have contraceptive choices, and that we can be fixed after births that go wrong too. But still I can't help wondering if the lower level interventions like induction and forceps are a bit too commonly used. There seems to be quite a lot of medical advice about what women should be 'allowed' to have for example.

It's an interesting subject.

Lots of women now have easy labours, but they don't talk about it because they aren't haunted by them.
Lots of women in the past had hard labours but they didn't talk about them because it wasn't talked about at all.

IMO things are getting easier because deformed rickety malnutritiony pelvises are less common and quality of life issues, relating to the state a birth leaves you in, are taken much more seriously. and expectations are getting, quite rightly, higher. But I think we will soon reach the apex and things will start getting worse again as the NHS collapses; and as inequality increases and the welfare state is dismantled more people experience the effects of real poverty on their nutrition and lifestyles. I probably hit roughly the best historical moment ever to have babies, in that case.

No it hasn't.

I can't imagine how terrifying it must have been years ago.

Both only lost 1 child each.

"ONLY"!?! That's still a rate of 10%+ lost babies. In most developed countries it is now a rate of 0.5%.
There is never an 'only' in losing a child no matter how big the family. Society just had to think of it like that then because otherwise life would be dire. Victorian mourning etc' shows that deep down people were torn apart, but helpless to prevent it.

Here is some food for thought:

"But we must fix our gaze on one person only. Men say that we live a life free from danger at home while they fight with the spear. [250] How wrong they are! I would rather stand three times with a shield in battle than give birth once."

This is a line from a play called Medea which was first performed in 431 BC.

Also food for thought: Japan has one of the lowest birth rates in the world, despite the fact that being a mother is considered one of the most respected things a woman can do.

Although this is due to a range of factors, it is very telling that in Japan women are treated like absolute shit during the birth process. Pain relief is systematically unavailable as pain is considered to "bond" you to your child. Women are not aloud to make noise during birth, as it is deemed as "stressful" for the baby. Doctors are basically considered gods, and questioning anything they say is absolutely unacceptable. Women have absolutely no say in how they give birth, are denied pain relief, whilst being told to put up and shut up.

And they wonder why the birth rate is so low.....

So, no it hasn't changed. The change has been a societal one.

Back in bad old days many women died in childbirth, of blood loss, or of infection a few days later. Those who had bad births but survived weren't allowed to talk about it. It was hugely frowned upon. Much like periods and other "disgusting" natural things which were very impolite to talk about.

When we think about times like that we think about the Victorian ages, but it's way more recent than that. I found out recently that a grandparent had two still borns. I'm in my thirties and had literally NEVER heard about it until then. It just wasn't talked about.

My mum talked about her own birth experiences for the first time recently. She is clearly still traumatised by them. She was treated horrifically both times, and was very nearly killed by this bullshit "natural" movement back in the 70's and 80's.

These days if you were treated like that in a hospital you would sue them for millions. Back then it was "normal". People didn't tell you what was happening. You got shouted at. They told you to shut up if you were deemed to be making too much noise or "causing a fuss". Don't forget that until recently, nursing was a vocation that you pretty much had to give up if you got married. So many nurses had never actually been through childbirth before themselves.

These days women are empowered to talk about their experiences, although you still have to actively seek out the information if you want it. It's still very much "glossed over" in 'polite society'. I was in my twenties before I even heard about an after birth. That's around the same time I learned that many women shit at the same time as giving birth.

Squizita- my GMs gave birth in 1930/40s Ireland. 'Only' losing one child each was very typical.

My family came from the same on one side, and rural India on the other.

I stand by the fact that we shouldn't be saying "only" about any stillbirth because actually not everyone had them and secondly, although they were far more common they had a shockingly similar psychological and physical impact on the women involved to the impact today. Society expected them to suck it up and carry on: but this shouldn't have been the norm, wasn't the norm (often they became depressed and either distant or clingy) and asylums in Ireland were full of women who hadn't recovered quickly enough from infant death.

Er I should point out that not everyone finds childbirth painful - it was just hard work both times and less than an hour as I was not even aware that first stage was happening. there are a few of us who have this experience but we don't feel able to say this in company. Oddly other women seem to feel that it is there fault for having pain if you mention it!!!
I would think some research into why might be a good idea. I suspect that it is nothing to do with desert as it is entirely unexpected (obviously!). And I would prefer my daughter to have a similar experience; my mother and sister had painful long labours.

CDWales did you post on another thread about how you had a "theory" whereby if other women did what you did in the weeks before birth it would be painless? Either doing exercise or resting.
Might be getting my wires crossed with another poster.

I think that might be what is pissing people off - everyone knows some women find labour much easier than others. If it was something obvious (bar your genetics and nerves - people do feel muscular pain very differently) I'm sure someone in human history would have worked it out.

I have a good book about this but I forgotten the author. I think it#s thje same one that goes through childbirth ideas over the ages incluing Truby King, penelope Leech etc. It's upstairs. I also have a book called something like - Maternity - letters from working women which was about women giving birth in very poor bits of London in the 1900s (and of course the trilogy of books Call the midwife which was made into that series - they are a great read, as good as the programmes).

My mother was one of the first NCT members in the 1960s and very sensible about births, keeping active, not being still etc and she has passed that down. her own grandmother was the unofficial village midwife from about 1920 in the village in a time when many women could not afford to pay for a doctor or trained midwife. She had 11 children who all survived.

I think it's a bit unfair to call it a "bullshit" natural movement. For generations everyone in our family has wanted and been able to achieve natural births. Obviously since medicine improved we know we have a choice of what we use and I certainly was glad to use gas and air but if you don't need an epidural and don't want a C section you can have a perfectly satisfactory natural birth. most things natural tend to work best eg - flat on your back obviously gravity doesn't work so most women don't dinf that unnatual position very good in labour so my great grandmother, grandmother, mother and I and I hope my daughters move and stand up in labour.

Yes, if babies stick and you need intervention then you go for it but plenty of natural labours are exactly what women want. My home birth was the nicest of the lot.

im not sure about the birth themselves but the aftercare has changed a lot when my mom had me dad was not in the room she was given me to feed then i was wheeled off to the nursery till feeding time came around she was instructed to sleep on her stomach to make it go down the whole idea of feeding on demand and actually cuddling your baby was alien she spent a week in the croft by the end of the week we were in a routine like it or not we slept and fed on schedule

my youngest is 18 months and still goes to bed when he feels like it!

It was a bullshit movement because - back then at least - it was dogmatic. My mother had severe health problems throughout her pregnancy, which were dismissed as her being "difficult". The doctor was only brought in - despite her pleading for a doctor for hours - when they realised that there was a good chance she might genuinely die.

She haemorrhaged four times after giving birth because the nurses refused to take the baby when she wouldn't "persevere" with breast feeding, even though her milk hadn't come in at all (and never did), and she was forced to get up to try and find a way to make the baby stop crying, or to find formula. The nurses refused to even bring her water.

This was in a state of the art, brand new hospital in a big city in the UK.

I am all for women having choice on how they give birth, but it should be exactly that. A CHOICE. It's a bullshit movement when it actively nearly kills people just because they want OR NEED something different.

Every woman in my family have had straightforward births; no c-sections, no forceps, ventouses, long labours, tears etc, etc. Even my DH's mother who took 16 years to conceive him had a straightforward 7 hour labour aged 39 in the mid 70s!
Me however, broke the mould. I had a 'straightforward' pregnancy unti it was discovered at 36 weeks that he wasn't growing and I had lost half my fluid. A week later, no growth and lost half the fluid I had a week earlier. I was induced and ended up with a rare reaction to the pessary, a placenta abruption, foetal distress, a uterine tear and massive blood loss. Harldy genetic - just circumstances.
Now I'm 7 weeks pregnant with DC2 and worried the same things will happen again yet I know I could end up with an elective c-section or a straightforward VBAC. Time will tell. These things cannot be predicted.
I think there is more medical management of births these days because monitoring and more awareness of what can go wrong is at the forfront of our minds.
Births 50+ years ago may have been 'straightforward' but a lot of the diagnostics and assistance wasn't availabel and infant and mother mortality was a lot higher.

Just as an add on, if a woman wants to give birth without any pain relief or medical help, that's her choice and I respect that (even if I think she is barmy to reject medical advances). I wouldn't judge her for it.

When I give birth I fully intend on getting ALL the pain relief available, with doctors all over the shop, and for them to respect my wishes regarding no cutting unless it is absolutely essential.

It's amazing how many "pro natural" movement people will sneer at you for wanting those things. I think if anyone tried to deny me pain relief in hospital, or ignore my wishes, they would probably be faced with the most terrifying harpy they could have ever imagined, hissing words like "sue you for every penny" and "formal complaint".

Greengrow the NCT and natural movements did have their problems (read my PP for details) in their early days (because they have done so much for women, I wonder if this is glossed over) - some people took the whole birth warrior thing too literally and lost sight of practical, sensible advice.
Obviously not everyone but there was a big element of that sadly: if you had to have interventions due to a real medical issue (e.g. PE) you could be ostracised and likewise I know of someone who was fecally incontinent because they refused conventional medical care.
Also, a major issue which is covered in many books on birthing naturally is that they said 'refuse the drugs/interventions' before everyone was clued up on alternatives. So if you want a home birth now you'll know about active birthing, water births, hypnobirthing... but back then a big chunk of women (not everyone) doing it the NCT way had nothing but their political verve to fall back on!

Also... do you not wish your daughters to have safe, easy labours... whether standing up, on their head, lying down, whatever?

Babies are bigger and there is far more obesity in mothers than yrs ago. That most like leads to trickier labours I would think in some cases.

But on the flipside there are fewer tiny babies or mothers with weak/misshapen skeletons from childhood malnutrition - which are more likely to cause dangerous (let alone painful) pregnancies and births.
Women also don't labour again and again until their cervix/body is literally worn out. That's why you see those pictures of women in Victorian times you'd think were 60 but are 35.

Don't underestimate the impact of antibiotics either. My natural pattern (3 times) seems to be long long labour but straightforward delivery. I've needed antibiotics for infection afterwards each time-DD1 was on antibiotic drip in scbu for her first week. The traditional 10 days rest was partly because babycare and womens work was much more physical years ago, but also to ward off puerperal fever- a much bigger killer than labour itself. If antibiotics stop working then childbirth could become much more risky again.
First and second time (89 +91) I had hospital births with mostly supportive midwives. Last time a home birth with midwives who were 'not allowed to intervene until I was ready to deliver as the protocol was for non-intervention'. Refused to examine me or break waters when I asked them to and basically sat on my sofa chatting all night. Eventually a transfer to hospital for pain relief after 50+hrs of contractions.

Not read whole thread but I think childbirth has for harder.

Got harder

To clarify my above post... Of course in rural east Africa we had lots more maternal and perinatal mortality/morbidity than we have here. And lots more "catastrophic" events in labour and antenatally which would have been headed off at the pass here, as well as downright weird shit no one in the UK has seen since the 60s because it's picked up during your antenatal care. But those gruelling grim long first labours with epidurals, synto, instrumentals...nope, not as a routine (not that we had epis, synto or instruments). Labours on the whole were quicker and easier, if they were going to go well. Very few long long drawn out labours, prolonged rupture of membranes, long latent phases, and those we did have were always going to be catastrophic. Here a long gruelling shitty labour is a daily if not hourly occurrence at my hospital (although also see plenty of quick, "easy" labours).

Pain woes, well. I can't speak for how those women experienced pain. But there is definitely a huge difference in how pain is expressed when you know there is no pain relief option. Less getting upset and more head downa and get on.

OP this is the book I mentioned earlier

www.amazon.co.uk/New-Generations-Britain-National-Childbirth/dp/0117020478

by Joanna Moorhead. Currently £2.5k for a new one (!) but a penny for a used one on Amazon.