Elective C-Section (medical/non medical reasons)

[LittlePeaPod]

I understand this subject has been done before. I also know that ECS particularly as personal choice rather than as a medical need is an emotive subject and the debate about CS birth can be particularly contentious.

Considering 1 in 4 women in the UK experience a CS birth I have been disappointed to see how inadequate access to CS antenatal information is, so women can make a truly informed decision. Personally I think it's short-sighted to focus solely on VB and continually emphasise managing pain relief. The NHS is so focused on their target to reduce the 1 in 4 CS due to cost that they are neglecting their responsibilities to those women that choose or want a CS birth regardless of medical need.

I am currently 23+6 and I have chosen to opt for an ECS. There is no medical reason for a CS but this is a birth choice that I want. I understand that CS and VB both carry real but different risks but I believe these risks should be explained to women so we can make informed decisions about which birth risks we wish to take. Unfortunately this is not the case and the push for VB is so endemic in the NHS that women are not receiving the true facts on CS.

For those women like me that want an ECS birth. I just wanted you to know that due to the new NISA guidelines if you want/choose a CS the NHS now have to give you one. They will do everything they can to try and change your mind to the point of trying to scare you and make you feel guilty about your choice. But, regardless of medical need if you insist that a CS is the right choice for you the NHS have to honour your wishes and give you a CS. I am fortunate to have been able to privately pay for independent advice on VB and CS from three different very well respected professionals in the UK (two consultant obstetricians and one consultant in fetal medicine) and also received advice from a close family friend who is a consultant anaesthetist. I was shocked to hear how target driven VBs are in the NGS and how in fact this is what's driving the push for women been made to think they should have a VB and not the safety issue.

Ladies it is your choice how you have your babies and what you do with your body. If you want a CS you can have a CS regardless of medical need on the NHS. My DF and I have just spent a lot of money finding that out. I am 23+6 and the NHS have now confirmed I will be having an ECS and there is no medical or psychological need. I am having it because its my choice. I wanted to share this because prior to spending a fortune getting non biased information I was under the impression that I had to prove a VB was medically necessary, would psychologically affect me or that I had a fear of VB before a CS would be authorised by the NHS. Well that's not the case, its about personal choice. VB or CS you have a right to choose and the NHS have to honour your choice. It's just a shame and has royally pissed me the fuck off that if your choice is an ECS for non medical reasons the NHS are making it so difficult for you to opt for that choice in an informed way.

I find your comment vaticancameo a bit offensive to be honest. your telling the OP that because she hasnt been through natural birth she cant compare or have her own personal preference. . having a natural birth is not a medal of honour.

I for one am having an ELCS and its my first child toom I have read these posts and I find it utterly disgusting how judgemental some are just because a woman actually makes an informed choice on what is best for her baby and herseld!

I do not have to justify my choice or explain myself to anyone other than ny partner who fully supports how I decided to bring our child into the world.

if you dont like it not really bothered as im the one that has to live with my choice.

I really do not comprehend why people are so judgemental abd negative about others birth choices. it doesnt directly effect you.

the comments about NHS and cost..I have paid my dues all my working life, I never go to the doctors unnecessarily. the one time I want to actually use a system I have paid into and well over the odds into for 16 plus years I think I am entitled to have a duty of care just like everybody else. The cost to the NHS is a moo point in my eyes. their are plenty od other thinfs that are draining the NHS . elective ceseareans is not one of them

everyone has a right to their own opinions. the real question is why does it anger/bother people so much if a women has an ELECS ?!?! I can see from other posts it really gets to people and I have no idea why. your naturale birth doesnt bother me.

you know other countries have a very different view to childbirth to how it is here in the UK

correction I ment to say that because she hasnt given birth before...not natural birth

Munchkin, you've misunderstood my post. What I said was, that the risks for cs are higher than the risks of a straightforward vb. That is true. Having had a previous vb with complications that were likely to recur, for me, the risks of vb were higher than the risk of cs. My point was that if you have not had a vb, you don't know what your experience would be like, and statistically, you are very likely to have a straightforward vb with a better outcome for you and baby than after a cs. This has nothing to do with personal preferences. You can choose a cs for non-medical reasons, and that's absolutely your prerogative. But you can't ignore the stats and pretend they're in your favour.

Apologies for not reading entire thread (in my defence I have a 6 day old baby here demanding some attention!).

I had two VB (one in 2000 and one in 2003), with both I tore quite badly and really struggled for about 10 days post birth just to even walk. Both birth experiences contributed to me failing to be able to breast feed properly.

Had a planned ELCS for DC3 due to breech presentation. This was supposed to happen on Monday of this week. However on Saturday I decided to go for a long walk and low behold I start having contractions in the middle of the bloody park.

Had to have an emergency caesarean at 11pm on Saturday night, obviously I was aprehensive due to not having experienced this type of birth before. I have to say the experience wasn't 'brilliant' but in terms of recovery I feel I have recovered far better than I did with both previous VB births.

I think we should be able to have the choice, for whatever reason. I think I would opt for ELCS again. And the theatre staff were bloody brilliant. I felt like the most important person in the world on Saturday night.

I don't think it's possible to simply say that the stats are in 'favour' of a VB. The risks to the mother and baby are different in both cases. E.g. some people would rather have an infection to my stomach wound than a third degree tear.

Munchkins Jess. It does not anger me nor bother me that people choose elcs. I even considered one myself the only thing I have against one which is what swayed my decision was that medically I do not need one and if I were to choose one I would effectively be taking the time of a surgeon that may be needed at that time to save someones life. But that is my own personal feelings and I understand other people have there own views on things, I do think that both medical and mental reason should both be a reason people can opt for a c section, but my personal feeling is that if it isn't a medical reason the person should have counselling and have full knowledge of both vb and elcs and still be 100% certain elcs is what they want before it is agreed

I am actualy having a c section for mental and.medical reasons so therefore I do know that going through a natural birth is not going to be a better outcome for me or my baby!

therefore the stats are in my favour.

sorry typing from.my phone

I'll probably be flamed but I think a lot of the take-up for ELCS (for no medical or psychological reasons) come as a result of the disconnection of our mind and bodies (...I sound like a lentil weaver, whatevs).

We, as women, are convinced from an early age that our bodies are wrong and inconvenient, dangerous things that need to be controlled with medication and God help you if you menstruate indiscreetly.

All this interference extends to childbirth, the minute you find out you're pregnant you're told that you can't possibly do without this, or that. "Do as you're told, we know best, don't trust your body; it will fail you."

Like I said upthread, thank God for c-sections. No doubting they're essential, no mother or baby should die in the pursuit of natural birth, you don't get a medal. But where there's no indication that anything will go wrong, why is there this fear among women that something will inevitably go wrong, so much so that some are eliminating the possibility altogether and opting for major abdominal surgery? There should be more trust put into our bodies.

Munchkin - you have obviously missed that OPs original point was about having an ELCS where there is NO medical or psychological reason to. I don't think anyone here would deny anyone the right to choose if there is a medical/psych reason to.

I have not missed the point. if i didnt have medical reasons I would still push for an ELECS.

I would like to point out that even tho I feel I have reasons for having one I still had to jump through hoops and have various appointments, discussions about it to the point that I was booked and confirmed at 29 weeks for an ELECS and yesterday at 35 weeks I had to have another discussion to almost justify myself to another obstetrician who I had never met before as to why I was having an ELECS..and every comment that came out was negative and unhelpful.

I do not believe that a natural birth is my best option mentally or medically and having to go through it again at 35 weeks was very disrressing for me when I had already been through the it all.

my midwife is extremely pro choice and understanding and I thank god that I got her.

even know when I tell people I am having an ELCS with valid reasons I still get comments and this face along with it.

their is a stigma attached to it whether people want to accept it or not.

I am at work and not able to respond properly at the moment but I will later.

PassThe CreamEgg Could I just clarify that my original post was about:- 1) women been able to choose ECS regardless of medical/psychological need if that’s the right choice for them, 2) the lack of adequate access to unbiased and factual antenatal information on risks/benefits on all birthing options, 3) the fact women are making decisions on very little or very biased information.

OP I get that. My point was that the issue that's actually being debated is whether it's ok to elect to have a section with no medical or other need. Because as I said few would deny the need to have the option where there is medical or other necessity. Sorry if you think I misunderstood your point, I was just focusing on the contentious bit. It seemed irrelevant for munchkin to be arguing she should be able to have one with medical need - no one denies that. You're right that I didn't refer to your points 2 and 3, but they haven't really been the focus of the debate so much.

Completely agree with Kirjava. Thank god for c-sections but this country really does seem to set women up to not trust themselves from the start. Where I'm from women are generally left to it in regards to childbirth unless there is a pre-confirmed issue. So my mother and all my sisters have had homebirths with no pain relief and not one of them had any problem all birth over with 12 hours max, and if there were any issues they were within 10 mins transfer to a hospital.

When I moved to England and became pregnant with my first, I was discouraged by a lot of people from having my home birth (which went perfectly) as they were sure something awful would happen. It does make me wonder if the high instances of intervention like drugs which slow labour down cause many of these really traumatic births?

Apologies for going off at a tangent but with all these debates regarding VB vs CS and other mothering issues, there is an underlying subtext that winds me up. I noticed this greatly when I was pregnant, and it is touched on above by Munchkin when she describes how people sometimes give her 'that disapproving face'
It is that subtext that shouts, I am better and more au-naturel than you because of a my analgesia-free natural birth, exclusive breastfeeding, sling wearing, co-sleeping (or any number of other issues)
Now I realize that this is off-topic and likely to wind some people up, but I feel that we are doing new mothers a disservice, and making them feel needlessly guilty with this current trend. Someone above pointed out that they felt they had 'failed' because they ended up with a section. This type of thinking is madness and sometimes seems to be a product of certain antental classes pushing VB as the only real way to have the 'birth experience'

I do agree with you BambooBambino, there does seem to be a lot of pressure on women in this country but I also noticed there seemed from people I met that there was a presumption natural childbirth would obviously fail and hospitals, epidurals and forceps were inevitable and that the birth I chose was stupid and risky?!

I think it has very little to do with women trusting themselves from the start or not. Many of my friends, and myself, really wanted a natural birth, I for example was ready and prepared for a home birth, did everything 'by the book', read everything I could find, exercised, stretched, yogaed, hypnobirthed. I was confident and strong, and in good health. Women who are lucky enough to follow all that and have a natural birth don't 'trust themselves' more than I did, but I did end up with two emcs, not because drugs slowed everything down, not because I didn't have any smelly candles or a birthing ball. But because shit happens and there is so so so much in the process of birthing that just doesn't do what you want it to do. I read all the right things, ate all the right things, and nobody in the entire world will convince me that it's my fault, or the fault of consultants/midwives/hospitals/drugs that I ended up on the op table. God you people sometime make me want to vomit at the sight of so much ignorance.

And nobody will be able to convince me that I have failed either.

If you want a planned csec girl, go for it, I won't stop you. but I don't see it as a right. It's a guideline issued by NICE. That's all it is. C secs are not a right, it's a back up plan to save life. Why don't you get a private c section?

I am so frustrated having to nip on and off between meetings and calls. I have a lot to say and will later.

Bamboo When I posted I knew this would be contentious and also knew that people would strongly object to my choice. Which I was fine with and I want/wanted to debate this in case anything was raised that I hadn't considered as part of my research or through discussion with the Consultants and also to give women like me a voice. One of the things that has struck me through this debate so far is the fact it's not just that some people object because they don't agree with it I am fine with that, it’s the fact they can't possibly accept or understand that anyone would choose to do this because it was right for them. It doesn't matter how often you say "this is my choice and I am more than aware of the risks. But, personally the VB risks are unacceptable and therefore I opt of an ECS". People need to find an underlying reason - it's society telling us we can't cope, it's because your are scared of the pain and think a CS is an easier option, it's because you don't trust your body and my favourite you are too posh to push. But more disappointing, I too have also picked up on the subtext that shouts, I am better and more au-natural than you because of a my analgesia-free natural birth, exclusive breastfeeding, sling wearing, co-sleeping (or any number of other issues). It's really disappointing to read and hear.

The fact is I (along with the support of my DF) am more than capable of making an informed decision on what I believe is right for me and my daughter. Trust me this has nothing to do with society or whether I trust my body to cope etc. I fully trust that if I choose to have a VB my body would probably cope very well. I am fit, not overweight or underweight 24 weeks pregnant and still working out at the gym and have no underlying medical issues outside anaemia. Nor do I have any psychological issues which mean I am afraid. Please accept this is my choice and the medical team I am under are also fully aware of this. This is a choice you may not like, a choice you may feel uncomfortable with and/or agree with. But please be clear and assured that it's my choice.

Blueberry with regards to why don't I get a private one.. Because I pay 45% tax and have paid HR taxes for years never claiming anything or using the NHS facilities. Rather I choose to go private because I didn't/don't want to use resources that others in not such a fortunate position could use. But this has riled the fuck out of me and I fully intend the NHS to pay for it and do it! There are other women out there like me in not so fortunate position and I want them to know that you can have a CS if it's right for you. You just need to know how to request it.

I think you'll find that most people who have replied on here don't agree with the points you are making. What if someone has a real need for a c sec because the mother and baby's lifes are in danger but oh, sorry, PeaPod wants a c sec and she has just as much right as you have because it's her choice. Her precious decision to have an elective c section for no medical reasons counts just as much as your life threatning situation. That is rich. Quite precious. Really. Do you think that the NHS can afford this? I think you will find the answer is no. I don't know on what planet you are living.

So you're entire reason for starting this thread is to encourage women to obnoxiously demand major medical procedures they don't need, which will not only put themselves and their babies at an increased risk but will also take precious resources away from those who do, on the sole basis that you just 'fancy' one and you want something back for your taxes?

Well have a fucking medal then. Dear oh dear.

Blueberry* no need to be so condescending, it's unpleasant. You have made yourself clear, you don't agree. Actually when you are booked in for a CS and an emergency case arrives you have to wait. ECS are never prioritised above and beyond EMCS. So I am not putting anyone's life at risk. I assumed you would know this if you had considered an ECS historically. You are unhappy and don't agree with my choice and that's fine but I guess you have to live with the fact that I am doing it and I am doing it on the NHS. With the regards cost to the NHS, I feel no guilt what so ever and I also think I pay/have paid more than my fair share into that system. Maybe we should start cutting some of the procedures I think are wasteful - cosmetic surgery, weight loss surgery etc. to fund more worthwhile things like maternity care.

In no way was I insinuating that women who don't end up having a natural birth have failed themselves in any way, or haven't trusted themselves enough.

I was just trying (and evidently failing) to point out that a lot of the time a woman is made to feel that interventions are inevitable from the outset, and that it's extremely unlikely that their birth will go smoothly, from either what they read or what they're told by midwives/healthcare providers. I think this is very damaging.

Of course things don't always go to plan, which is why we're so lucky to have the NHS and the excellent care that most people receive from it, c-sections included.

Oh Saucy please wind your neck in... If you read my op you will see that I was telling women like me they can have a CS if they want. Have you just worked that out?

Go for it. I've had two c sec and it's no walk in the park. Let's just pray that there are no real emergencies (by definition, you know, not planned or booked, or scheduled) whilst you are having your operation. And who knows, maybe in the science fiction future our NHS will have enough wealth to offer c sections to everyone.

So you want more women to demand a c-section for no reason, if they want to?

That will just result in less elective c-sections though won't it? If a lot more women demanded the surgery 'just because', they'd probably shut up shop completely and there'd be less wiggle room for those who fall in the category where it's recommended but not for life threatening reasons. Anxiety, mental health issues, previous traumatic births etc.