Elective C-Section (medical/non medical reasons)

[LittlePeaPod]

I understand this subject has been done before. I also know that ECS particularly as personal choice rather than as a medical need is an emotive subject and the debate about CS birth can be particularly contentious.

Considering 1 in 4 women in the UK experience a CS birth I have been disappointed to see how inadequate access to CS antenatal information is, so women can make a truly informed decision. Personally I think it's short-sighted to focus solely on VB and continually emphasise managing pain relief. The NHS is so focused on their target to reduce the 1 in 4 CS due to cost that they are neglecting their responsibilities to those women that choose or want a CS birth regardless of medical need.

I am currently 23+6 and I have chosen to opt for an ECS. There is no medical reason for a CS but this is a birth choice that I want. I understand that CS and VB both carry real but different risks but I believe these risks should be explained to women so we can make informed decisions about which birth risks we wish to take. Unfortunately this is not the case and the push for VB is so endemic in the NHS that women are not receiving the true facts on CS.

For those women like me that want an ECS birth. I just wanted you to know that due to the new NISA guidelines if you want/choose a CS the NHS now have to give you one. They will do everything they can to try and change your mind to the point of trying to scare you and make you feel guilty about your choice. But, regardless of medical need if you insist that a CS is the right choice for you the NHS have to honour your wishes and give you a CS. I am fortunate to have been able to privately pay for independent advice on VB and CS from three different very well respected professionals in the UK (two consultant obstetricians and one consultant in fetal medicine) and also received advice from a close family friend who is a consultant anaesthetist. I was shocked to hear how target driven VBs are in the NGS and how in fact this is what's driving the push for women been made to think they should have a VB and not the safety issue.

Ladies it is your choice how you have your babies and what you do with your body. If you want a CS you can have a CS regardless of medical need on the NHS. My DF and I have just spent a lot of money finding that out. I am 23+6 and the NHS have now confirmed I will be having an ECS and there is no medical or psychological need. I am having it because its my choice. I wanted to share this because prior to spending a fortune getting non biased information I was under the impression that I had to prove a VB was medically necessary, would psychologically affect me or that I had a fear of VB before a CS would be authorised by the NHS. Well that's not the case, its about personal choice. VB or CS you have a right to choose and the NHS have to honour your choice. It's just a shame and has royally pissed me the fuck off that if your choice is an ECS for non medical reasons the NHS are making it so difficult for you to opt for that choice in an informed way.

[corduroybear]

Agreed bloomin. Very well put.

And can I just add that I 'achieved' all those benefits (except for needing to wait for the spinal to wear off - didn't have one - and needing to wait to be able to drive) after a vaginal birth. Without costing the NHS thousands, putting myself through major surgery, and exposing myself and my baby to unnecessary risks.

[LittlePeaPod]

bloom. You need to read through the thread. You are making a fool of yourself.. All your points have been discussed and its very idiotic to say woman shouldn't have children because they don't want to push it out... Very naive, stupid and idiotic...

Read the thread before making your post!

[LittlePeaPod]

Cord you also need to read through the thread. You will find that CS would actually cost the NHS less..

Please people read the thread before making points that have been discussed! You just look stupid if you don't!

[MrsB2013]

Thanks for the update LittlePea

It's great to hear you had a quick recovery! I have my elcs booked in for 4 weeks time. Not looking forward to having to stay in hospital, did you have to ask to go home so soon? I thought the minimum was 2 nights?

[LittlePeaPod]

MrsB I had DD NYE and went home New Years Day. The minimum is 2 days if they woman feels they need to stay in an extra day. My SIL stayed 2 days. I didn't feel I needed the second night. I was moving around well, DD was fine and although uncomfortable the CS wasn't actually that painful. I was on paracetamols and ibuprofen. The decision to leave was made by me, my hospital MW and the duty doctor. We were all happy with my recovery. The only thing they wanted to ensure was that I was able pee normally following the CS before I could go home.

I was much happier at home. Home comforts and all that. Don't get me wrong the CS is uncomfortable for the first week/10 days but not so uncomfortable you can't look after your baby alone. You can do everything you need to do. A bit slower for the first week or so but you will be fine.

Good luck and let me know if you have any other questions.

[peeapod]

I had my elcs 3 weeks ago. It was one of the best moments of my life thanks to the staff involved. As i went into theatre i was introduced to the team by the reading out of my list of key points aka birth plan that i had attached in a nice big font on the front of my notes. My needs and wishes were respected throughout and during recovery. I was in on Thursday and out on Saturday.
did it hurt? O... Yes and it still does twinge sometimes. But its nothing painkillers cant handle. It restricted the things i can do with baby a bit but this could be personal choice and taking it carefully. IM not able to walk very far without getting tired but with practice im building up my strength. I can't lift anything heavier than baby so im using a stretchy wrap sling of i go out instead of a pram. I don't feel confident to bath baby and in restricted by where i can change her because bending os hard.
that being said recovery is going very well. I know it was the right decision for me and the surgeon confirmed it too.
i have to finish on a positive. She was born at 2 mins past, was weighed and checked and on me by 5 past and feeding from me within the hour. We spent a glorious 5 hours continuous skin to skin and i was able to continue bonding with the help of a private room. And baby is healthy happy and feeding well (already over birth weight)

[LittlePeaPod]

Yeeaaaaa congratulations peepod and welcome to the world baby peepod.

[LittlePeaPod]

If anyone wants to see what CS scar looks like I will apply take a picture and share. It's really small and heals really well.

[bloominbumpy]

Little pea pod.. get over yourself! !

just because I don't agree with you (although dont judge you) you cant acuse me of being naive stupid and idiotic!

if you weren't "lucky" enough to be in a situation where cs is available then how exactly are you expecting to get a baby out????

Your are the one sounding an idiot to think that there is any other way.

If you weren't in the position where having a cs is an option and still didn't want a vb then you wouldn't be getting pregnant because unfortunately there is no other way to get the baby out is there?

And no I dont need to read an entire thread to post MY opinion on your op... if you didn't want people to disagree with you then don't post on the Internet!

[LittlePeaPod]

Oh please. You are contradicting yourself. One breath you say you don't judge but then spout crap about women not getting pregnant if they don't push babies out. Please give it a rest. Yes I think your comment is stupid and you are ignorant.

You come a thread without reading it. That's stupid and ignorant.

Read the thread before spouting crap!

[ChicaMomma]

bloomin, looks like a nerve has been struck- no idea why you are so aggressive and frankly, unpleasant. Which, as you alluded to, is allowed on the internet- but it's really not necessary either.

Some of us have been following this thread with great interest as we are considering the same thing and i for one was very appreciative of LittlePeaPod being brave enough to post it (as it is, clearly, a contentious issue). It's not about being too posh to push, it's about the safety of mother and child. Yes, there's another way, obviously- but there are many ways to do everything and people should have the CHOICE without people like you going berserk about it.

But really, stop being so unpleasant, there's no need for it.

[LittlePeaPod]

One other point to add to Chica. Bloom have you ever considered that it's people like you that make other woman that want a different choice or have no option but to have a birth they didn't want feel like failures?

I have no time for ignorance and stupid!

This thread was set up to support and provide ongoing information about what the reality and truth is when you opt for an ELCS rather than the bigoted views I used to hear.

[bloominbumpy]

Oh please.

Stop making me out to be some kind of horror!
I don't disagree about people having their choices ive expressed that twice now in saying I wouldn't judge others! Your being ignorant for not reading my post and just getting upity because I disagree with you.

You still can't tell me exactly what you expect to so if cs
Wasn't an option? Because as far as I'm aware vb is the only option in that case.

I don't disagree with you that people should have the option to have a cs but I don't think it should be something that is encouraged just because your scared
Of labour! As ive already said im terrified at the moment mostly with the fear of the unknown but it would have to be bothering me quite mentally/physically to opt for a cs just because im scared.

Why is it just because the option is there that you think we should take it? As I have previously said surely in your idea we should be having weight loss surgery rather than dieting etc.

And it is completely irrelevant about reading a whole thread my opinion would stay the same throughout wether I had been the first or last poster.


And to chica... how am I aggressive and unpleasant? Please tell me where in my first post I was either of those things? I think you'll find I wasn't and anything after that was simply a reaction to being called stupid and idiotic! !! For no other reason than I disagreed with the op. Why the hell is littlepea more entitled to her opinion than I am mine??

Please answer me that! Everyone is all so full of women's rights freedom of choice and opinion but because I disagreed im stupid etc... yeah that makes sense!
So yes chica a nerve has been royally touched.

[ChicaMomma]

Well, opening your post with ''Too posh to push comes to mind!!'' is ignorant for a start- most especially when you'd not read the full thread.

Your tone is unpleasant in general- but hey, that's your prerogative. This is a pregnancy forum so in general we are here to support each other, not attack each other. IMHO of course.

The reason i would favour an ELCS (and i still havent fully decided, 37 weeks today, consultant wants an answer by 38 weeks) is because my best friend had a baby who died during her childbirth due to complications and a delayed EMCS.. i am petrified of the same thing happening, regardless of how unlikely it is. IE, highly unlikely. But that's neither here nor there. You really do need to take a step back and relax a little bit tbh.

[LittlePeaPod]

I am not getting upset. I just have no time or patience for people that don't have the decency to read through threads. I also have no time for stupid and ridiculous posts.

I am not making you sound like a horror. Your own contradictory comments are making you sound like a horror. "Oh I don't judge but I don't think woman who choose to have a CS should fall pregnant". How utterly ridiculous and stupid is that sentiment?

I have no issues with people disagreeing and if you read the thread you would know this. But you ignorantly choose not to so you get the reception you deserve.

And the reason I have not answered your question is because its a ridiculous question. The reality Bloom is in this country we do have a choice so why on gods green earth would I get into a debate about a non realistic and ridiculous hypothetical question. So I choose not to answer the question because its a stupid question!

Again read the thread... Who said anything about me been scared of labour? You are making things up in your own head! Is this your first child? If so let's hope you are not the one in four that end up with a CS because you may feel like a failure because of your own ignorance.

Why is it just because the option is there that you think we should take it?. Again stop been lazy and read the thread. This has been discussed in a lot of detail..

Here have a

Chicca. I think its time we stopped giving her air time if she can't be bothered to have the decency to read the thread.

[ohthegoats]

Personally I'd opt for counselling before major abdominal surgery if my fear was all 'mental' rather than based on previous physical trauma. I'd also consider whether this should be something I do before getting pregnant, to ensure that I am able and willing to pay privately for a truly elective section if I still feel that it's the only option. For people with physical aspects of fear, then it's planned C-section, not elective.

It costs £2,369 for a planned C-section, £1,665 for a planned vaginal birth. Obviously some will be cheaper if they are homebirth etc. I genuinely think that if it's all about your preferences (even based on fear), then you should be willing to pay that £2,369. At some point people need to take adult responsibility for their decisions, and not just assume that a public resource will mop up the cost of their preferences.

It's nice that you had a good experience, obviously. A bit difficult for you to come back and say it was anything other than amazing though, to be honest.

[bloominbumpy]

You miss two very important words of my sentence there.. "FOR ME" as in I would feel as if I was being too posh too push!

what's wrong with that? I wasn't saying littlepea was being "too posh to push"

Or is that what the problem is here? you and littlepea have got the wrong end of the stick? Because I can't see what I said wrong? Im certainly not "attacking" anyone.. oh the joys of mumsnet!

Well im sorry for your friend but I don't understand why your telling me why you would have a cs? I dont disagree that you or anyone else shouldn't have one for any reason. I just think its a very silly notion to think that cs is the answer and I personally wouldn't encourage a friend to have a cs because she is scared because then I would be making a cs sound like the better easier option which it isnt for everyone.

Im sure this has already been said but what if you'd planned your cs and then suddenly went in to labour and couldn't get to the hospital? wouldn't it be more terrifying then if you hadn't educated yourself or taken steps to cope with a vaginal birth because you had a cs planned? I know I wouldn't want that and thats something thats very real for as my friend just had he 1st dc in under 3 hours literally from start to finish. Worries the crap out of me as I live nearly an hour from hospital and until then had been quite comfortable with the fact 1st labours normally take a while.

[bloominbumpy]

littlepea your being a bit mean now.

I NEVER said " h I don't judge but I don't think woman who choose to have a CS should fall pregnant".

Thats a horrible thing to make up!!

but the thing is if your not "willing" to push a baby out of your vagina for no reason other than "you dont want to" why are you pregnant in the first place?

thats what I said and that thing on the end of the sentence is a question mark as in I was asking a question based on my idea that cs wasn't an option.

if it makes you feel better to twist my words and make me out to be a monster then carry on but it doesn't say very much for yourself. And I have quite frankly lost any respect I had for your original point about more information being available. I now think your rude and terribly judgmental.

[LittlePeaPod]

Asking the question says a lot about what you think. If you read the thread you will get all the answers to all your questions.

I expect you will be leaving the thread now. I wish you a heathy and positive pregnancy and a heathy delivery.

[Meglet]

littlepea I'd offer to pop a photo of my 2 x CS and 1 x hysterectomy scar up (abdominal surgery queen here ). But it's pretty much invisible 5yrs since the last op. I've got childhood chicken pox scars that have lasted decades longer than the cs one.

[RedToothBrush]

When someone says:

bloominbumpy Wed 28-May-14 18:22:08
Havent read entire thread

Too posh to push comes to mind for me!

and then someone responds with

bloominbumpy Thu 29-May-14 13:16:02
Little pea pod.. get over yourself! !

just because I don't agree with you (although dont judge you) you cant acuse me of being naive stupid and idiotic!

I do think they are deserving of the criticism, because they have made a decision without being arsed to listen to anyone else, and well yes that is rather naive, stupid and idiotic not to mention incredibly rude, massively arrogant and dismissive of everyone else's opinion or any additional information that they may have and offer to the debate. Why should anyone give you the time of day?

The fact that it has been mentioned several times on this thread that the research shows that contrary to the too posh to push myth, women who ask for an ELCS tend to follow a pattern and tend to belong to particularly vulnerable groups who are in need of support and compassion rather than criticism and more beating with the mythical 'too posh to push' stick is a very important one and one that needs to be stressed here and perhaps one you should take on board even if you disagree with allowing ELCS. Maybe it will stop you and think before you say something that is really destructive and potentially damaging.

I do ask who should really be getting over themselves? The person too lazy to be arsed to read the thread and judging everyone in their first post or those who are sharing their personal experiences, which are often very emotional and sensitive?

Now if you had read the thread, voiced your opinion, and explained why you thought the research was wrong or addressed some of the issues raised about vulnerable women or challenged some of the explanations of the NICE guidelines and why they are currently like this in a meaningful way, I might have a bit of time and respect for your opinion even if its different. But since you haven't got time for anyone else's opinion why should they respect yours in the slightest? Being able to articulate an argument, rather than just spout an opinion is a commendable quality.

Please try harder.

Now if you would like to ENGAGE in the discussion rather than telling us your all superior opinion based and what information you have to back up your opinion that its about 'too posh to push', I'll quite happily spend time listening and perhaps offer a counterpoint or two.

Otherwise, please just jog on as you just show yourself to be nothing more than someone coming on a thread to stir trouble and are really not worth reading.

Ta muchly.

[RedToothBrush]

ohthegoats Thu 29-May-14 14:52:50
Personally I'd opt for counselling before major abdominal surgery if my fear was all 'mental' rather than based on previous physical trauma. I'd also consider whether this should be something I do before getting pregnant, to ensure that I am able and willing to pay privately for a truly elective section if I still feel that it's the only option. For people with physical aspects of fear, then it's planned C-section, not elective.

It costs £2,369 for a planned C-section, £1,665 for a planned vaginal birth. Obviously some will be cheaper if they are homebirth etc. I genuinely think that if it's all about your preferences (even based on fear), then you should be willing to pay that £2,369. At some point people need to take adult responsibility for their decisions, and not just assume that a public resource will mop up the cost of their preferences.

Small point but how much do you think all this counselling is going to cost, before hand and if god forbid, despite it all a subsequent birth also is traumatic and someone needs additional counselling. When does the need to counsel stop?

Strangely enough these were not figures NICE used when deciding that on the evidence they had that ELCS were cost effective. They decided that if you started to consider other factors and down stream side effects and their costs that the cost of a planned C-Section and a planned vb was almost impossible to calculate but they felt that women should not be denied an ELCS on cost alone because there was a very valid argument that for some women an ELCS could come out cheaper than the alternatives.

Should we be charging women who are obese extra as they are higher risk and more likely to need a CS because they haven't reduced their BMI before they get pregnant? Somehow I think you'll say no to that. So why should women who have an ELCS based on mental health grounds, be penalised and charged, based on figures that actually don't necessarily add up?

[RedToothBrush]

Also have you tried to access support for this type of issue BEFORE getting pregnant? Its mildly easier if you have had a previously traumatic birth - if your GP believes you and supports you. But they have to think its justified and you really do have a problem and the services have to exist for you to do this. For some women they have neither the support or services available.

If you have never had children... well, thats even more interesting. There's no care pathway for you. No specialist services available. Basically, good luck, you are on your own!

In fact NICE even say, they have no idea what type of counselling works - if it indeed it works at all. They stressed the need for research in this area, amongst concerns that there was very little understanding of the subject and they feared that some forms of treatment may actually be harmful or a complete waste of resources.

[LittlePeaPod]

Red hope you are well. It's been a while and as ever well put.

meglet. I am so up for it. I can't believe how small it is although I now feel a bit silly having read your post.

[RedToothBrush]

I'm good thanks! And pregnant believe it or not! With an actual ELCS date already as planned with my consultant midwife prior to getting pregnant. I can't quite believe it, or the sense of relief and foundations of trust that its given me. Counselling alone would never have achieved the same thing and I'm glad I wasn't actively forced down that route. I can not believe how lucky I've been so far in managing to find one of the few people and places in the country who have experience in the field and have listened seriously to my fears and concerns without judgment.

I just wish that my experience (so far!) wasn't so untypical, that access to this kind of support was universal and wasn't restricted just to those who are able to seek it out by themselves.

I've just got to hope it continues and that I can get to the end, and deal with all the other anxieties and concerns I have but I have a much more positive outlook than I ever thought possible. It feels achievable. If you had told me this even in January, I think I would have laughed.

I'm glad I've been treated like an individual human being, with flaws and that seeking help has been greeted and regarded as a brave thing to do, rather than a sense of weakness or failure.