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Talk about every stage of pregnancy, from early symptoms to preparing for birth.

Elective C-Section (medical/non medical reasons)

827 replies

LittlePeaPod · 11/09/2013 08:21

I understand this subject has been done before. I also know that ECS particularly as personal choice rather than as a medical need is an emotive subject and the debate about CS birth can be particularly contentious.

Considering 1 in 4 women in the UK experience a CS birth I have been disappointed to see how inadequate access to CS antenatal information is, so women can make a truly informed decision. Personally I think it's short-sighted to focus solely on VB and continually emphasise managing pain relief. The NHS is so focused on their target to reduce the 1 in 4 CS due to cost that they are neglecting their responsibilities to those women that choose or want a CS birth regardless of medical need.

I am currently 23+6 and I have chosen to opt for an ECS. There is no medical reason for a CS but this is a birth choice that I want. I understand that CS and VB both carry real but different risks but I believe these risks should be explained to women so we can make informed decisions about which birth risks we wish to take. Unfortunately this is not the case and the push for VB is so endemic in the NHS that women are not receiving the true facts on CS.

For those women like me that want an ECS birth. I just wanted you to know that due to the new NISA guidelines if you want/choose a CS the NHS now have to give you one. They will do everything they can to try and change your mind to the point of trying to scare you and make you feel guilty about your choice. But, regardless of medical need if you insist that a CS is the right choice for you the NHS have to honour your wishes and give you a CS. I am fortunate to have been able to privately pay for independent advice on VB and CS from three different very well respected professionals in the UK (two consultant obstetricians and one consultant in fetal medicine) and also received advice from a close family friend who is a consultant anaesthetist. I was shocked to hear how target driven VBs are in the NGS and how in fact this is what's driving the push for women been made to think they should have a VB and not the safety issue.

Ladies it is your choice how you have your babies and what you do with your body. If you want a CS you can have a CS regardless of medical need on the NHS. My DF and I have just spent a lot of money finding that out. I am 23+6 and the NHS have now confirmed I will be having an ECS and there is no medical or psychological need. I am having it because its my choice. I wanted to share this because prior to spending a fortune getting non biased information I was under the impression that I had to prove a VB was medically necessary, would psychologically affect me or that I had a fear of VB before a CS would be authorised by the NHS. Well that's not the case, its about personal choice. VB or CS you have a right to choose and the NHS have to honour your choice. It's just a shame and has royally pissed me the fuck off that if your choice is an ECS for non medical reasons the NHS are making it so difficult for you to opt for that choice in an informed way.

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RedToothBrush · 06/12/2013 20:42

Fun facts of the day from the [http://www.hscic.gov.uk/catalogue/PUB12744 HES 2012 - 2013 maternity figures] officially released by the government this week:

60.9% of all women had a spontaneous vertex birth. 0.4% had spontaneous other. 3.2% had low forceps. 3.6% had forceps other. 6.0% had ventouse. 0.4% were breech, 0.0% were breech extraction. 25.5% of all women had an CS (10.7% ELCS, 14.8% EMCS).

Compare this with two different age groups.

69% of women aged 20 - 24 had a spontaneous vertex birth. 0.5% had spontaneous other. 2.8% had low forceps. 3.5% had forceps other. 6.0% had ventouse. 0.3% were breech, 0.0% were breech extraction. 17.9% of women between 20 and 24 had an CS (5.4% ELCS, 12.5% EMCS).

53.4% of women aged 35 - 39 had a spontaneous vertex birth. 0.3% had spontaneous other. 3.0% had low forceps. 3.7% had forceps other. 6.0% had ventouse. 0.4% were breech, 0.0% were breech extraction. 35.6% of women between aged 35 and 39 had an CS (17.1% ELCS, 16.8% EMCS).

Bit of a difference depending on your age there.

...remembering that women who are older are more likely to have more children read on.

404,094 woman had spontaneous deliveries. (Note here that data was unavailable for 293,685 women). Discounting this missing data, 34.3% of all spontaneous deliveries were 1st time mothers, 32.5% had one child, 16.7% had two children, 8.3% had three children, 4.1% had four child and 4.1% had 5 child or more.

83,984 women had instrumental deliveries. (Note here that data was unavailable for 25,121 women). Discounting this missing data, 64.1% of all instrumental deliveries were 1st time mothers, 23.5% had one child, 7.4% had two children, 2.8% had three children, 1.1% had four child and 1.0% had 5 child or more.

167,283 had CS (Note here that data was unavailable for 49,325 women). Discounting this missing data, 40.4% of all CS were 1st time mothers, 30.4% had one child, 15.2% had two children, 7.1% had three children, 3.4% had four child and 3.4% had 5 child or more.
Breaking that down to ELCS and EMCS:
23.7% of ELCS were 1st time mothers, 36.7% had one child, 20.9% had two children, 9.9% had three children, 4.6% had four child and 4.2% had 5 child or more.
52.4% of EMCS were 1st time mothers, 26% had one child, 11.1% had two children, 5.2% had three children, 2.5% had four child and 2.9% had 5 child or more.

Of course those figures are distorted by the number of children women have (there are less women for each subsequent group), but there is some interesting things there.

If you are a 1st time mother over 35 you might be raising an eyebrow a little by now... (Conversely if you are a second time mother there might be some comfort in them too)

...then you see this...

0.5% of all births were still births.
For spontaneous VBs 0.7% were still births.
If you break this down further:
Normal deliveries (Spontaneous vertex) 0.6%, Spontaneous other delivery 0.5%, Other breech 12.7%.
For instrumental deliveries 0.2% were still births.
For CS (All) 0.3% were still births.
Breaking down CS figures, ELCS was 0.2% and EMCS was 0.3%. Other was 1.1%

Huh? What? Yep. Go read the HES figures... Whats going on with that? Again there is data missing like the previous batch of figures, so it does need to be approached with some caution, but its enough to make you wonder why this is the case. Let me just repeat that. In 2012-2013 in the UK, the rate of recorded still births for 'normal deliveries' was 0.6% compared with 0.2% for ELCS (and indeed instrumental deliveries which might actually soften fears about instrumental deliveries for some women).

You'd be very much forgiven if you are over a first time mother over 35 planning to have just one child, to make a completely rational decision to have an ELCS based on that information, without any need of clinical anxiety or questioning of your mental health. Yet this is not deemed acceptable by society.

Of course its not as simple as that and loads of other factors come into the mix, but those statistics do make you stop and reconsider the general information that you are being told.

There's loads more data in the HES figures, including a full page of delivery complications (which I note are purely psychical) and a full page of birth complications by method of delivery which are too lengthy to post here but worth reading if you are trying to assess what might be best for you and your own personal circumstances.

Warning though; you can sit reading those figures for hours and drive yourself crazy with them too though. My point is really whether its appropriate to be giving out such generalised information that we are currently getting that might be completely unreflective of your situation and wondering why healthcare providers being so dismissive of questioning them.

There is plenty in there to encourage women to go for a VB and plenty to encourage women to have the freedom to choose an ELCS without being vilified for doing so.

It is not as simple as "planning a VB = natural, more likely, safer, good" vs "planning a CS = unnatural, unnecessary, has more complication, bad."

RedToothBrush · 06/12/2013 20:43

HES 2012 - 2013 maternity figures even

LittlePeaPod · 06/12/2013 21:40

MissMidden you don't necessarily need a GP referral if you are lucky enough to get a supportive MW (which has been the case for a couple of women on this thread). See how your MW appointment goes but if you get a sense she may not be supportive then I would recommend a GP referral. Keep us posted wit how your appointment goes.

Red thanks for the information.

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amandine07 · 08/12/2013 19:18

RedToothBrush
Thank you for posting those stats & the link, very interesting reading indeed.

I'm one of those people who like to be as informed as possible, can't just go with the flow & see how things pan out- well, in other aspects of my life but not with childbirth.

I know there's a bit of a feeling that you shouldn't scare yourself by talking to too many women with bad experiences or look up too much on google.

However, I feel that I owe it to myself & my baby (and my OH) to ex

amandine07 · 08/12/2013 19:21

Oops posted too soon!
...to explore all the risks involved.

I know there's an huge element that is out of our control during childbirth but even so, I want to get as clued up as possible so I when/ if I need to make big decisions I'll be as informed as possible.
And I make no apology for that!

amandine07 · 08/12/2013 19:27

MissMidden
I would echo what has been said about not necessarily going via your midwife. Certainly try to discuss things with them & see what they say.

For me, I just went direct to my GP as I wasn't seeing a regular midwife and the ones I tried to speak to about it the other week were really dismissive of my fears and weren't hearing me at all, just ploughing on with their agenda.

Up to you, but getting an appointment with the GP might be quicker- I may be incorrect but I think a lot of midwives would tend to gloss over the risks & not really want to go into much detail e.g. discussing the potential consequences of a 3rd or 4th degree tear.
That's more the domain of the O&G doctors who follow these women up, treat & operate on them for repairs etc.

Sorry gone off on a bit of a tangent!

amandine07 · 08/12/2013 19:40

I have to add- there is so much stigma that exists ELCS and to an extent vilification of women who choose to go down that route.

Before I used to read articles in newspapers, watch programmes on TV...there's that expression "too posh to push" which I absolutely despise.

Now I'm in a situation where I'm directly affected & have strong feelings for pursuing an ELCS for myself, I'm starting to get very angry at all this aggression & anger that gets directed towards women like us.

I really couldn't care less how the next woman wants to give birth, that is her personal choice & I absolutely respect that. Really, it's becoming more clear to me that opting for an ELCS really is another 'birth method choice' despite what people say.

Why should we be dictated to by the prevailing attitudes & beliefs? This is the way you should give birth & any departure from this is somehow abnormal & even possibly a bit deviant from societal norms.

One last thing- does anyone have statistics reflecting the cost of repairs to vaginal birth injuries to the NHS?

The cost to business/industry from women unable to continue work due to ill health because of this?
What about the psychological cost of ongoing trauma from a VB- depression, post traumatic stress disorder etc?

Phew, I'll stop now. Rant over! Grin

GreatJoanUmber · 16/12/2013 09:44

Digging this back up for an update ...
I've got my date booked! Not exactly the one I wanted as the consultant told me they don't operate on Fridays (so the junior Dr I saw last time gave the wrong information Angry ). However, it was no problem at all to request it for 40 weeks instead of 39 weeks! Baby will now be born on his due date Smile and I'm starting to get a little bit excited now.
I did tentatively ask if they'd consider the following week at all, but the consultant said rather not as baby is looking to be on the bigger side and my scars will be more and more stretched as time goes on, thus increasing the risk of a rupture. That's fine with me though, after all I did go into labour with DS1 at 40+5 (even though he was only born at 41+0); and I really have no desire to experience labour pain ever again.
All in all it was a very positive appt, got my pre-op booked, filled out the consent form, and c/s booked for 9 Jan in the morning!! Only 3.5 weeks to go now!!

Writerwannabe83 · 16/12/2013 09:53

How nerve wrackingly exciting greatjoan Smile

I'm seeing my Consultant in 3 weeks, she wants to do the c-section when I'm 39 weeks which is actually very bad timing, lol, I'm going to see if there is any room for manoeuvre.... Smile

GreatJoanUmber · 16/12/2013 11:12

Good luck Writer! There should always be room for manoeuvring; after all it's you who decides. I was surprised at how easy it was to be honest - she started "So we always do sections at 39w, let's look at the dates" and I said, "Actually I'd rather have it at 40w", and she just said OK! And there I was with all my prepared notes that I didn't end up needing Grin.

LittlePeaPod · 16/12/2013 20:18

congratulations Great and hope you get your dates sorted Writer*

Well as promised here is a further update following my Pre-op appointment today. Again no questions asked regarding why I am having an ELCS. Everyone really supportive and lovely. So different from initaila ELCS request! Nothing really to report. Appointment was basically completing consent forms and getting MRSA swabs (nose, under arm and bikini line).

Had a chat to my consultant who did an antenatal check and confirmed what I do on the 31/12/2013. I am to call the delivery ward at 7am on the scheduled date. Currently provisionally booked in at 9am for ELCS. Also I need to go back in on the 30/12/2013 for Pre-op bloods.

So excited if all goes to plan we meet our daughter no later than 2 weeks tomorrow. Grin

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Missmidden · 16/12/2013 20:29

Good news all round on this theead!

And I have some to add- I saw a lovely midwife at my booking appt last week who was very supportive of my request. She has referred me to what she said is the most sympathetic of their consultants in 10 days time (only so early as I am on progesterone until 12 wks so would apparently see him for this anyway).

So it's not a yes yet but I am feeling fairly hopeful.

Good luck for New Year's Eve Littlepeadpod- exciting times!

cantheyseeme · 16/12/2013 20:30

Just had an ELCS and it was amazing, such a positive atmosphere and nothing like my EMCS, a little nerve wracking but within 10mins my beautiful dd2 was out :) Im so pleased i opted for a section (after 39 weeks of vbac vbac vbac) instead of a possible crappy labour that most likely wouldve ended up as EMCS anyway :) So happy with my whole care this time around too.
Gl to all you ladies having one soon and hope your experiences are as good as mine :)

LittlePeaPod · 16/12/2013 20:32

Thanks for sharing your positive experience cantheyseene and congratulations on the birth of your DD. Flowers

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LittlePeaPod · 16/12/2013 20:33

Brilliant news MissMidden and keep us posted with progress but its sounds positive. Grin

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cantheyseeme · 16/12/2013 20:37

In regards to the negative attitudes towards ELCS, I have never made such a brave decision, this is not "the easy route" by any means, leaving yours and babies lives in the hands of amazing teams in the NHS (or private) takes a lot of balls!

LittlePeaPod · 16/12/2013 20:41

It still amazes me that people actually believe we choose an ELCS because we think its an easier option...

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cantheyseeme · 16/12/2013 20:46

My best friend said i was too posh to push, i hate that term so much! I dont know if its just me that wrestled with guilt at the thought of ELCS, but since doing it and being totally in control i feel....liberated Grin

LittlePeaPod · 16/12/2013 20:56

Cant. I have had all sorts of things thrown said at me. I don't trust my body, I am too posh to push and someone on this thread actually said "don't get pregnant if you don't want to give birth". Ha ha ha ha. It just goes in!

When people ask me why I am having an ELCS Now, I do get tempted to say "because I am too posh to push and just can't be arsed with the effort of pushing and ruining my vagina. Do you know what I mean?"

I would love to see their responses. Ha ha ha ha Grin

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cantheyseeme · 16/12/2013 21:13

Pmsl thats definately what you should say!
Are people actually that ignorant, at the end of the day as long as you and your family are safe and well and happy who is anybody else to judge how we have our babies? Grin

Writerwannabe83 · 16/12/2013 21:53

My friend, who had her baby 2 weeks ago (vaginally) said that the women who get c-sections are the lucky ones Grin It was said with good humour. I haven't met anyone actually who has been negative about me having CS but maybe that's because they know I have to have it, not that I'm choosing to have it. I really don't see what difference it makes as to how the baby enters the world, as long as it arrives and mom and babe are both healthy, that's all that matters.

ShreddedHoops · 16/12/2013 22:14

Good luck for the 31st LittlePea! Smile

Have read whole thread with interest. I had an ELCS for medical reasons, but also suffer with anxiety and was so relieved I didn't have to go through the unpredictable whirlwind of a vaginal birth. I do feel I've missed out on a sort of mystical and pure experience of womanhood, but not enough that I'd ever attempt a vbac! Good luck, I do think you seem a little naive and I'd caution against thinking that intelligence / money can guard against any of the emotional turmoil of the early days of motherhood Thanks

I think that as long as the NHS are financially stricken bloody Tories then it just isn't feasible for it to be an equal and genuine choice. Which makes me sad - it should be about what's best for mother and baby, not as VivaLeBeaver said upthread, down to the NHS being run by accountants. Maternity services need a lot more money pumped in, but I can't see it happening in the near future.

But honestly, when I had DS two years ago I felt really well informed and positive about my ELCS. I still felt as though I'd been hit by a truck afterwards, physically and emotionally. I don't know if giving birth vaginally in some way might have helped with that, but I was just in absolute shock at this little creature who needed me 24/7 and would scream if he wasn't on me. It wasn't dignified, calm, sane or anything else and it was the hardest 48 hours I've ever had to endure, my post natal ward experience. Next time round I'd do it privately or at least pay for a private room. I failed to breastfeed, had panic attacks when the awful bf counsellor kept ramming his head on to me Sad it was so upsetting and is been determined to bf, but I was in insane levels of pain after the operation, couldn't sit up without massive pain for about 6 weeks, couldn't lift him or anything.

I do agree that the ideals are perfect vaginal birth (unpredictable) followed by ELCS. A lot of the crap in between is pretty grim Grin

LittlePeaPod · 17/12/2013 08:06

Cantheyseeme. I am going to do it. Next person in real life that asks will get that response. Will also have a dead pan serious face. Lets see what happens... [Grin] Ha ha ha ha people really are that ignorant and some people really think they have right to tell others how they should birth their children. Just need to skim through some of the posts on this thread alone!

Writer. I have to say I too have met anyone in RL with an awful ELCS or EMCs experience. But, do know a few people with awful VB experiences.

Shredded thanks for sharing your thoughts..

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LittlePeaPod · 17/12/2013 08:07

Writer that should be have not met...

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SlinkyB · 17/12/2013 08:36

Hello all, have mostly been lurking on this fab thread.

So happy about your positive appt with consultant greatjoan Smile Good luck Writer.

I have my consultant appt this Thursday (will be almost 36 weeks) and wasn't sure what to expect, so reading your experiences helped prepare me.

I'm really hoping to have baby around 39 weeks, as will leave a two week gap before ds turns 3 and want as much time as possible to recover and have some energy back to enjoy it with him. Also don't want the kids' birthdays right on top of each other!

Besides, ds was born at 40+12 (induced/emcs due to undiagnosed breech) so am really glad my ELCS will avoid that.

Am also so sick of people looking at me with a puzzled expression and saying "why are you having a cs then?" So am loving your suggested responses LittlePea Wink. I just tend to go "oh, lots of reasons" and it shuts them up.

Ooh, will be thinking of you on NYE then Little best wishes for a great Christmas and a lovely calm birth Smile

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