Are your children’s vaccines up to date?

Set a reminder

Please or to access all these features

Pregnancy

Talk about every stage of pregnancy, from early symptoms to preparing for birth.

Breastfeeding and expressing

22 replies

Boop33 · 29/08/2012 11:31

Hi all,

I would like a bit of advice here as the closer my DD gets (currently 30 +2) the more I am thinking about it . I really want to breastfeed but would also like to express milk so that DP can get involved too ! so just a few questions i would like help with please :-)

  1. How many feeds , on average does a newborn have in a day and how often?
  2. How long does each feed last? ( approx)
  3. I would like to introduce a couple of expressed feeds in a day so would I be able to do this in advance and store in fridge and warm when needed ? How much and how long would this take?

We have already purchased steriliser , breast pump and bottles in advance - at the min they are still in the boxes .......!

I know this is quite a lot to ask in one go but just so we can start getting our heads around how much time feeding takes up and if it will be feasible to do both without TOO much stress !

Thanks in advance
xx

OP posts:
Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
GingerDoodle · 29/08/2012 11:49

I can't help with your questions but I am hoping to express to allow DH to be involved with feeding when our first arrives (am 35 weeks tomorrow).

I haven't got very far with it yet but there is an American book - www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/097361420X/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_3 which looks promising in terms of providing some answers!

milkyjo · 29/08/2012 11:50

How long is a piece of string? Newborn will feed no longer than 3 hourly. My DS fed 1-2 hourly until 7 months! He had reflux though but also slept well overnight so did all his feeding in the day and also did not sleep very well in the day! He would feed 30-45 minutes, sometimes fall asleep still latched and not let go!

Your plan sounds very hard work to me as you will have to breastfeed a newborn and express throughout the day. If I were you I would get your newborn into a loose feeding routine (or rather she gets you into a feeding routine!) and then once you feel you have successfully established breastfeeding think about your original plan. Most people I know have found breastfeeding hard and I remember thinking I'm not enjoying this at all but then it got better and I loved it and breastfed DS until 13 months, with a bottle at bedtime from about 6 months. I expressed in the evenings once DS had gone to bed - from about 6 months - it used to take 45 minutes and I'd get about 6-7oz.

There will be plenty of opportunities for your DP to be involved with baby even if he doesn't help with feeding. My DH was particularly good at walking around the house humming to tiny DS to stop him crying - something I couldn't do as I was in pain and my voice wasn't low enough! Also he did the night time nappies and I did the feeds.

trilottie · 29/08/2012 12:03

I'm only 32 weeks but have been reading Food of Love by Kate Evans, she answers lots of these questions and its really well written (and witty)
www.amazon.co.uk/Food-Love-The-Successful-Breastfeeding/dp/0954930959/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1346238127&sr=8-1

Declutterbug · 29/08/2012 12:10

I can see how you might come up with this plan antenatally before first baby, but honestly it's not realistic.

  1. Expressing takes time. Time is something you don't have with a newborn. It is twice the hassle to express and feed the baby than it is to just breastfeed them.
  1. Normal not to be able to express more than 20ml or less in one go. So just for one feed, you might need to express many times (see point 1 above).
  1. Dads can do nappies, cuddles, singing, dancing etc. All these are needed as well as feeding and they are all helpful and give you a break.
  1. Potential for all this expressing and bottlefeeding to screw up breastfeeding. Expressing might lead to oversupply, nipple confusion etc.
  1. Impossible to predict number/frequency/volume of breastfeeds. That's a bottlefeeding mindset and not how breastfeeding works! With breastfeeding, when baby seems hungry you feed them for as long as they need. Repeat as often as needed. No times required.
  1. Dads usually go back to work. At that point, you have all the expressing faff, just for you to feed the expressed milk. Either that, or you're getting up at night to express whilst your DH feeds expressed milk (ypu will get too full otherwise, or your supply will decrease because the milk-producing hormones are highest at night). Simpler for you to feed baby, then hand over to dad to settle, do nappy etc.

Sorry!

TruthSweet · 29/08/2012 12:16
  1. How many feeds , on average does a newborn have in a day and how often?

Absolute minimum of 8-12 feeds a day (but more is fine). Cluster feeding - swapping from one side to the next for several hours is quite common (usually in the evening) and is not indicative of low supply at all.

  1. How long does each feed last? ( approx)
    Could be 5 mins, could be 1 hour.

  2. I would like to introduce a couple of expressed feeds in a day so would I be able to do this in advance and store in fridge and warm when needed ? How much and how long would this take?

It's not recommended to do this too early as the longer the gaps between feeds (and you would be introducing artificially long gaps by bottle feeding) tell your breasts to make less milk even if you have previously pumped and told your breasts you need more milk. Long gaps can also make you vulnerable to plugged ducts/mastitis if you get engorged (over full of milk) so you may find yourself expressing while your OH bottle feeds your baby.

On day 1 baby's stomach holds about 5-7mls and by day 10 this has increased to 60-80mls (you make very little colostrum [the first milk before your milk 'comes in'] in the first 3-7 days but that's fine as that's what baby's tummy is expecting) and from 1m-6m bf babies take on avg 25oz a day (range of 19-30oz) so you'd only give 2 or 3oz (60-90mls) at a time.

Lots of info on storing expressed milk here, what to expect when pumping here and how much expressed milk is needed here.

ChunkyPickle · 29/08/2012 12:21

Please, please don't set your heart on being able to express or your baby taking a bottle.

I had to pump for ages to get almost nothing, and then DS refused to take a bottle. I think we managed to get him to take one once, which is how I know that the tiny amount I'd spent so much hard work to express was barely a snack for him and he needed a BF so quickly after that I threw the towel in and didn't bother again.

Feeding the baby directly is the quickest, easiest way.. DP took baths with DS to bond instead (they could have 3 or 4 a day sometimes - DS found them very calming)

worldgonecrazy · 29/08/2012 12:25

Newborn babies feed constantly - if they're not sleeping they're feeding/suckling. This is entirely normal and how things are supposed to be, so do be prepared to shut up anyone who tells you they "only need feeding every four hours". It does tend to be worse in the evenings. Night time feeds are important - this is when the "make breastmilk" chemical is at its strongest.

Breastfeeding can be hard work initially, so the most supportive thing your partner can do is ensure that you only have one job as a new mum, and that is to feed your baby. So get him (and relatives) to help with all the housework, bathing baby, changing shitty nappies and feeding you - lots. You will never have known hunger like it! You will need this support for at least the first 6 weeks. Also find a local breastfeeding support group - there is nothing like the support of other mums going through the same up and down emotions.

Expressing does take time - I did it in the early days because my nipples were raw with bad latch and internal thrush. I expressed in the afternoons so that DH could do a feed when he got in from work. There were days when I expressed every feed to get through the pain, it can be done but it is hard work.

Expressed milk will keep in the back of the fridge for up to a week, and in the freezer for 6 months for an upright, 12 months for a chest freezer. Freshly expressed milk will be okay out of the fridge for between 4-6 hours depending on the ambient temperature. If you're planning on going back to work then use the excess supply of the early days, when your body is working out how much milk to make, to build up a freezer store.

There is no need to sterilise if feeding breastmilk - just use very hot soapy water and rinse well.

A newborn babies tummy is the size of a marble, and at a week old is the size of a walnut. Use common sense when deciding how much to feed. I think DD was taking about 20ml per feed in the first couple of weeks, gradually increasing.

The Medela Haberman teat is great for babies who are switching between breast and bottle as it is the only teat where baby has to actively suck to get any milk out. It is sold in large Mothercare stores or online - don't be put off by the "special needs" label, it helps prevent nipple confusion.

Good luck - for many mums the first steps on the breastfeeding journey are incredibly hardwork. The pay off comes when you don't have to get up in the night to make bottles, and when baby is instantly soothed by being put to your breast.

There is also a little milk-drunk smile that bf babies have, the smile is beyond words but every bfing mum will know what I'm talking about. It's the smile that is the reward for all the early difficulties of breastfeeding.

ZuleikaD · 29/08/2012 12:35

What everyone else said. Really, really don't worry about doing all this just so your DP can give your DD a bottle - it's not worth the massive hassle. Several reasons:

  1. you can't mix bottles in until they're about four weeks old anyway so that breastfeeding gets properly established. By that time you've only got another 21 weeks of exclusive breastfeeding anyway. Then you can hand him some puree and a spoon. Grin
  2. you will almost certainly have trouble finding time and space to express enough for more than one bottle. If you really want to do this, express first thing (before your baby's 6am feed or thereabouts) and you'll probably get enough for a bottle for your DP to give in the evening. But unless you plan to spend time away from your baby it's wasted effort. Far easier to take the baby with you.
  3. men are FAR more useful for other things. Cooking, washing up, doing laundry (this will be daily), tidying up, cleaning - for you. Cuddling, nappy-changing, singing, spending all evening on his feet jiggling a colicky DD - for her.
SoozleQ · 29/08/2012 12:52

Whilst my memory of DD as a tiny baby is somewhat hazy (even though she's not even 2 yet) I can recall that I expressed for a night time feed for her very early on.

She didn't take to breast feeding well to begin with at all and so just to ensure she got something I hand expressed into a syringe to feed her for the first few days, then got a pump when the midwife pointed out she needed at least 60mls by the time she was 5 or 6 days old, I think. She did feed directly from the breast but I would express for a nighttime feed which I would leave for DP to give her at 4am. Before he'd even returned to work from paternity leave, though, she'd dropped that feed and would sleep from midnightish to 6ish. If I remember correctly, I would feed her at 11 or 12ish, she would go to sleep and then I would express and leave the bottle for DP.

My nipples ended up destroyed and so to help preserve them I ended up pumping a lot and feeding DD using the bottle. I also found that it helped to get her to sleep more easily when she was a few months old to bottle feed her expressed milk at say 7 or 8 because she would be able to take more than if she was trying to feed from me. She'd get full and happy and go to sleep easily. With me, she would suckle for ages and then get grumpy.

Eventually we cracked the feeding so that there was no pain or nipple damage by about 10 weeks but I still expressed in the evening once she was asleep. She was always a good sleeper and so I'd pump in the evening after she'd gone to bed just before I went to bed to build up a store in the freezer.

Whilst it was hard work for a good few months, there came a time when I put the pump in the loft and all and any feeding was just direct feeding which was so much nicer. I'm still feeding DD morning and night (work full time) and when she demands at the weekends and she's now 22 months. It's lovely bonding time. DC2 is due in 7 weeks so I'll be trying to juggle the two of them!

From my experience, you just have to go with the flow. You can try and plan what you'll do but you have no idea how your baby will take to feeding or to the bottle. I had absolutely no difficulty with DD swapping between breast and bottle and using nipple shields even though everyone will tell you not to do that or not to introduce a bottle too early because they'll get all confused. Whilst I'm sure some babies do, I had no problems in that area.

I didn't set myself any kind of routine but I did try and make sure that I always had enough expressed milk for at least one feed in the fridge. It was fab just knowing that it was there if you needed it. I found that massaging the boob whilst pumping made a massive difference to how much I got and that sometimes when it looks as though there's no more coming out, just keep going for a few more minutes and there'll be a whole load more produced.

Good luck!

whatsoever · 29/08/2012 13:26

I have a three friends who have mixed breast, expressed and formula from very early (1-2 weeks old) and had no nipple confusion whatsoever, but I think this differs from baby to baby - similarly there are babies who take to bottles and do not seem to take to boobs (which I always find weird given one is natural and one isn't, but it seems to happen quite a lot).

Anyway, that was a ramble, but what I meant to say was, play it by ear. I'm 35 weeks and planning to breastfeed. I was going to buy all the equipment for expressing and a bit of formula "just in case" but now I've gone all laissez-faire and will only got and buy stuff if the normal boob-feeding route doesn't work out. It all sounds a bit complicated from day 1 otherwise.

Boop33 · 29/08/2012 13:38

HI ,

First of all thanks for the time you have all spent to provide answers! I am now very glad that I asked the question(s). My initial fear was that it would take a lot longer to express as well as bf so i have decided to take most peeps advice in the first place and stick to boob.....failing that i will resort to plan b) whatever that may be if and when the time arrives .

Thanks again :-)

OP posts:
strugglingwiththepreteenbit · 29/08/2012 14:18

There is little I recommend Gina Ford's contented baby book for, but the breastfeeding advice. (Which, boiled down, is really a lot of sensible guidance to organise your day so that you eat well and regularly yourself, keep the baby on one breast for a least 20 minutes at a time so they get both fore and hind milk, and to express after every feed to maximize milk production. That way you're equipped to cope with the growth spurts when they suddenly want more. To be honest, as a first time mum the "permission" to give feeding the time it needs was the biggest help. I also had to go back to work early (stopped sooner than I wanted to beforehand because of pre eclampsia), and found the shedule invaluable to keep up the breastfeeding.

TruthSweet · 29/08/2012 14:39

Unfortunately Gina Ford's 'advice' on bfing is sadly outdated and is non-evidenced based (i.e. it's not based on what is known about the physiology of breasts or the physical/hormonal processes behind milk making but rather on old wives tales and misinformation from years gone by) as evidenced by her talk of fore/hind milk (it's now known that two different kinds of milk aren't made there is one kind - how fatty it is depends on how 'fresh' it is) amongst many other things.

Kellymom.com, Jack Newman's website breastfeedinginc.ca, the Breastfeeding Network, Assoc. of Breastfeeding Mothers, La Leche League, NCT all have much better evidenced based information on which you can use to base decisions on bfing on.

ZuleikaD · 29/08/2012 15:10

Truth is correct about the misinformation in GF, but struggling is right insofar as you need to give yourself the time to do the job. And there will be days when you are pinned to the sofa - DD will feed at 10am, for example, for 45 minutes, then fall asleep at the breast, you won't want to disturb her so will sit there for another 45 minutes (ensure the TV remote is within reach EVERY time you sit down), then she'll wake up, you'll have time for a cup of tea, a wee and a biscuit and then she'll want another feed. Repeat till dusk, when she will want feeds every 20 minutes. Grin

strugglingwiththepreteenbit · 29/08/2012 16:33

oh boy, shows how out of date I am! (my youngest, bean aside, is ten!) Thanks for the tip! It was helpful at the time, though.

whatsoever · 29/08/2012 16:37

Pretty sure the fore and hind milk thing was mentioned by the MW at my ante-natal class a week ago? Referred to as the drink and the meal... Confused

OneLittleToddlingTerror · 29/08/2012 16:44

I'm still bf my 17mo. I wouldn't bother with the bottle either because of the answer to your Q1.

1. How many feeds , on average does a newborn have in a day and how often?

They feed all the time. Mine was a very fast feeder, about 10-15min tops a feed. But the other NCT mums were doing a-hour feeds and I think that's more common. Even with 10-15min feeds, I think DD was feeding every 1-2 hours. Basically the idea is you shove a boob on their face whenever they cry. If that doesn't settle them, you try looking at the nappy, checking the temperature. Mine doesn't need winding at all, so I have one less thing to worry about! IME, it takes so long to actually pump and the associated faff with the sterilising, it is a major major PITA. I did it because I was to return to work at 7mo. But DD started to refuse bottles at 4mo, so all the effort was worthless anyway. BTW, it's usually me feeding DD with the bottle because she has a very irregular bed time. DH dio the bathing and changing nappies in the early days. He still baths DD everyday now

2) How long does each feed last? ( approx)
10-15min for me, but DD was a very efficient feeder. She always always fell asleep on boob every feed. I was so worried I went to see an NCT bf supporter.

3) I would like to introduce a couple of expressed feeds in a day so would I be able to do this in advance and store in fridge and warm when needed ? How much and how long would this take?
Look at Kellymom on this. The milk will store in the fridge for about 3 days. (But check on kellymom as I was always using it the same day). I warm in the microwave, and shake it to make sure there are no hotspots. My DD drinks about 50-70ml a feed, but every baby is different, so the idea is to give more than they would need in a bottle. It takes me about 30-40min to pump 50-70ml, longer than directly feeding DD.

OneLittleToddlingTerror · 29/08/2012 16:48

Oh and the 10-15min excludes the cluster feeding. There were periods where I'd be stuck on the sofa feeding on and off for a couple of hours. Otherwise DD would be very unsettled. It's usually early evenings. (DH also took over the cooking). These are known as growth spurts.

Declutterbug · 29/08/2012 16:58

Warming breastmilk in the microwave kills some of the active parts that help protect against infection. Better to heat it in a jug of warm water from the tap Smile.

[[http://www.breastfeedingnetwork.org.uk/pdfs/BFNExpressing&Storing.pdf Storage times here]

Declutterbug · 29/08/2012 16:59

link Blush

Declutterbug · 29/08/2012 17:01

Foremilk & hindmilk myth explained

ZuleikaD · 29/08/2012 18:58

That foremilk/hindmilk thing is fascinating!

New posts on this thread. Refresh page