is it only me that doesn't pay attention to the "you shouldn't eat this, you shouldn't eat that.."

[thepowerofvoodoo]

i'm in the early stages of pregancy with dc2. during my first pregnancy i didn't pay any attention to what i should / shouldn't eat (I luckily don't have to think about smoking / drinking as I don't smoke and hardly ever drink in any case - although i certainly would still have the occassional drink if it's offered) but my favourite foods are rawish meats, blue and smelly cheeses, runny eggs, seafood etc - ie all the stuff they say to avoid. i just can't believe that there is any substantial risks to these foods - or certainly none more so than getting in my car and driving to work every morning.
in my first pregnancy, a lot of people thought i was being very reckless - but really, I can't believe that I'm the only one that pays no attention to this. do you all pay attention this stuff?

i with you op. I was anaemic towards the end of my pregnancy (didn't realise this until the last month) and it would have been a brave and very big man that came between me and my rare steaks that i badly craved.

That's really interesting chocolate.

My approach is to look at the guidelines in several different categories. first there's stuff where something about the food itself is the issue, eg alcohol and vitamin A, and there is a known link between too much and problems. The controversy is how much is ok, but having looked into it with alcohol I can't see why there's anything wrong with the odd drink.

Second category is similar to the first but whether the supposedly risky substance is a problem is not clear, eg caffeine. Looked into it as much as I can and it seems to me there isn't really any good evidence to suggest a problem so I've carried on as normal which isn't loads.

Third category is all the ones where it's not the food itself but the potential risk of food poisoning. This is where I get wound up,as the guidelines are just an ever changing list of foodstuffs, that gives the impression there's something inherently wrong with them. With all of these I appreciate that the consequences are very serious but more information on the actual risk of contracting listeria etc would , I feel, be more helpful. Having looked into it a bit I've decided I'm personally happy eating pretty much all types of cheese, rare steak, etc. I am being pickier about general food hygiene and eating at places where I don't feel confident about hygiene.

I was fussy about rare steaks (toxoplasmosis), and Mr Whippy ice cream (that really, really hurt - I don't do soft cheese or pâté anyway so didn't care about them). But I continued to eat salads, raw fruits and and cold meats (eg in sandwiches), which are a noticeable listeria risk although pg women in the UK are not told to avoid them.

i think that's key - brugmansia, i've just been googling, trying to find the statistics for the UK of listeria in pregnancy and I'm not having much luck. Rather than an ever changing list of dos and don'ts, it would be more useful to have some % facts from the NHS.
There is strong scientific evidence against smoking and excessive alcohol (can't see the harm in the odd drink), so this is something that I would not do - but I can't see the evidence for the NHS lists - or nothing that makes it more dangerous than a car journey, and for me, if I'm going to continue to get in my car, I may as well continue to eat rare meat.
Also, the guidelines vary by country whereas the alcohol/smoking thing is consistent across the board.

Thanks backwards. The advice has changed. When I was first pg I was told not to eat nuts as there is a family allergy.

Raw/ rare meat also = toxoplasmosis, which can be very dangerous.

Tamisara I couldn't agree with you more! I (or rather my mother) has been on the losing side of statistics twice in our lives: My middle brother was born with 9p Deletion Syndrome - which results in severe mental retardation, global developmental delays - he is 31 and has an IQ of 57. Then, when I was 11, my father fell of a mountain (that sounds dramatic - it's actually just literally true!) and, while 95% of people would have died who sustained similar injuries, he didn't - but has brain damage (confirmed by MRI scans) that turned my loving, lovely father into a (technical term here ) scary crazy person for 5 years until they came up with the right dose of lithium and whatever else they give him in a cocktail of drugs.

So, I've played statistical lottery and lost! It's actually, paradoxically, made me more attune to risk in, I hope, a sensible fashion? One of the reasons I'm writing my book is to calm pregnant women who can often live with so much visceral fear around a normal pregnancy. Scary things happen all the time: You are, however (and despite my extensive personal experience) not so likely to be on the losing side.

Also, I enjoy every single day so much more, as I'm so hyper-aware of all the things that can go wrong.....

Oh, and the incidence rate of 9p Deletion Syndrome, at the time of my brother's diagnosis, was 1 in 7 million.

"The main reason for not eating those foods is the risk of listeria. It isn't so much that there is a substantial risk of contracting listeria if you eat blue cheese etc, but that the consequences if you do contract it are serious and can be fatal for your baby. It's your decision - no-one is going to hold a gun to your head, but you should at least do some research to find out why these guidelines are in place before you make your choice."

I agree. I had a high risk pregnancy after 17 years of infertility, so there was no way I was going to take any chances.

I envy those of you who can get pregnant easily and can afford to be more cavalier about the risks.

Chocolate I'm sorry about your brother, wow those odds are truly unlucky.

I think you have a very positive outlook, but I'm just one of life's worriers, and for me - the worse possible thing did happen.

Good luck with your book, sounds interesting :)

Bun I agree with you. I think if I had eaten something 'dodgy' before my daughter died, I'd feel even more wracked with guilt (and I feel guilty & question everything I did anyway).

I'm agreeing with the OP here. I think we can arm ourselves with the advice and statistics, but then make an informed decision on our own risk taking.

I have had hyperemesis this pregnancy (throw up everyday, massive food aversions), but throughout I've been able to stomach eggs. Everyday for 7 months I've had a runny egg for breakfast- when it's that or nothing, I opted to take the risk.

However, I wouldn't risk oysters, liver, pâté or very rare meat. I don't smoke, and cannot stomach even the smell of alcohol!

A consultant obstetrician told me specifically to eat nuts, and not cut things out. He thinks the increase in nut allergy is down to people avoiding them.

I take all guidelines with a pinch of salt. I ate liver the other day (I don't think one portion in 9 months is going to give my child vitamin A poisoning), but I am careful with food hygiene. When I eat out I follow guidelines to the letter as food storage may not be what is should be in a cafe. I also wouldn't eat runny eggs if the eggs were from my neighbour's chickens. I would if they were from salmonella vaccinated hens.

They introduced the nut thing just before my first pg. I love a peanut butter sarnie and there's no history of allergies in the family so I was . I said to a friend who has nut allergies "Oh I'm not sure I believe this; did your mum eat lots of nuts when pg with you?" (expecting the answer no) and she said "well actually DM eats nuts obsessively, always has". So of course I fell for the dreadful power of anecdata and avoided nuts religiously, which was very tough for me.

One sodding month after the end of my last pg, they announced "Oh, sorry, did we say don't eat nuts? We meant don't avoid nuts." I was furious (but at least the DCs weren't allergic - that really would have been annoying).

I eat everything

I'd understood that the biggest cause of listeria was actually poor food hygiene. So my friends who cooked for me recently were all geared up for me to refuse (cooked) brie and gravy with a small amount of wine in (had very kindly provided alternatives), but were a bit shocked when I politely refused the pre-cooked crab they had bought off some dodgy road-side stall and served up cold. Still don't know whether I was overreacting or not but each to their own I guess.

I had fertility problems and took a long time to conceive, but have not been strict about following the guidelines. In fact I think I've broken all of the food ones except pâté. I've had a fair few drinks as well. For me it's not about being cavalier and feeling like I can afford to take risks with the pregnancy-at all. It's that, as others have explained so well, there just isn't clear and consistent evidence that following these ever changing guidelines will actually do anything to make my baby safer.

A lot of women smugly rigorously following these guidelines probably don't like blue cheese, pate, wine, coffee etc anyway. But stuffing MacDonalds down yourself for 9 months can't be that great for your baby either! A healthy varied diet with everything in moderation I say!

The NHS list of what you can't eat when pregnant is really very small. Effectively no blue cheese or unpasteurised cheese - but if you bake it it is ok. So you can get your canembert hit if you bake it with rosemary & redcurrant (not much of a hardship).

No pate's, raw meats or shellfish.

No booze and try to avoid cafene.

It's not a lot really.

I'm not a smoker, I am a vegetarian and therefore it's the booze and the cheeses that really effect me. If I can't go without for 9 months then I have a problem.

I agree with a few other posters that there is some utter madness bandied about, particularly in some advice columns and books. I have seen advice about drinking from plastic bottles (i.e. don't), nuts, the way your food is cooked, dying your hair.. all sorts. This strikes me as utter bollocks and designed to stress out Mums to be - by my reckoning the stress hormones are far worse than anything else.

I may, if all is well at the 12 week scan, enjoy the odd glass of vino again. However quite honestly I think I can cope with giving up for 9 months. I won't stress if I am eating a sherry triffle, for instance. A little common sense etc.

I think the massive discrepancies in guidelines from one year to the next highlight just how much truth there is in the huge majority.
Advice which is long-standing and based on sound research seems to be limited. To my mind this includes guidelines on smoking, too much alcohol and vitamin A-rich foods. Possibly blue / soft cheeses and unpasteurised eggs also - but I've never had listeria from them in my life. It'd be incredibly bad luck to get it now.
Personally I'm clinging grimly to my own judgement, avoiding the hysteria surrounding pregnancy and trying to use those twin beacons of sense, common sense and moderation.

I try and be sensible and weigh up risks. I don't see a problem with lion marked eggs so will happily eat them runny. I don't smoke, I used to drink but as DH is t total and this baby is his too he would be very unhappy if I drank anything during pregnancy, which is fine by me, if I can't manage 9 months without it I think there must be a problem.

I've had some Brie but panicked afterwards for days do am now avoiding it. the nhs website does say pregnant women can eat stilton though, so this has reduced my cheese cravings and increased my waistline

As for steak thankfully I'm a medium rare kinda girl and am happy to eat that occasionally if I know it has been stored well etc (trusted local butcher)

I personally think you weigh up your own risks, but obv somebody else has different opinions to you. Anything that will make you worry less in pregnancy is a good thing. Wether that be avoiding the foods religiously or not.

hrrm..I am fairly strict on drink, havent touched any alcohol at all, I also refrain from coffee, but have tea, I dont smoke so that is not an issue. I have had some pate, and i have had some runny eggs, but nothing in major quantities or very often...

Each to their own I guess, I actively avoid some things (vitamin A for eg) and others I'm more relaxed about. I've had the occasional glass of wine and I haven't restricted caffeine although I'm not much above the recommended limit anyway.

I've been so unlucky with food poisoning in this pregnancy, even deli olives gave me horrible d&v so I am being quite careful on that front just because pregnancy makes you more susceptible and it's not much fun. I know I've already had toxoplasmosis (think about 1/3 of adults in the UK have) so I don't need to worry about getting that from raw meat. I still avoid it though.

chocolate what was the advice issued in the states in 2002 re deli meats in pregnancy? If the advice was "avoid deli meat" and there were 3 fetal deaths in one outbreak of listeria, that puts a worse slant on it than if pregnant women were all happily chomping away on deli meat! Here in Australia we're told not to eat deli meat, or even meat that you have cooked yourself the next day.

I totally stuck to the guidelines.

The thing is, your baby might have a chance of dying from listeria that is very small but then 1 in 200 babies are stillborn, even more than that are "just" a miscarriage. With a lot of them we don't know why it happened and I wouldn't want to have the smallest doubt left that it was something I ate or drank and therefore could have avoided.

What seems apparent in this discussion (and other chats I've had about this with mums) is the disparity of information given by individual midwives, the NHS website, friends and family; and the lack of statistical back up to the foods that are 'off limits'.

Listeria has been found in bagged salad, for example.

I think we deserve more information about why those foods have been selected as dangerous to pregnant women, so we can make more informed choices.