never knew people were so judgy about elecs - the looks I got!

[PrincessScrumpy]

We went on a tour of our hospital today with about 8 other couples. I mentioned privately to the midwife doing the tour that I was due to have a CS.

When in the delivery room she did the usual stuff then said "now you've chosen to have a CS - is there anybody else?" The answer was no but dh and I found the looks we got from the others really surprising. The mw was obviously aware as when she took us to theatre to show us where it was she made a point of asking where the twin mum was (me) and suddenly people were much nicer and started talking to me.

I thought it was just me being sensitive but it was dh who actually commented as we left the hospital.

I felt like shouting "I've had a natural birth with dd1 and had only 15 mins of gas and air - I have chosen a cs but only as it is based on medical advice from a consultant!"

Sorry for long one - it just really shocked me as they didn't know any details so why give scolding looks? Has anyone else faced this?

TBH I found it all very amusing as I am more than happy with the plan and my babies are far more important than a load of judgy mums who I've never met before.

[BagofHolly]

I'm missing your point Kara. You don't like/approve of your friend's reasons for wanting cs. And? You're wrong to judge. It's still not clear to me why you're so disapproving! Why WHY should anyone be forced into something when an alternative choice is available and when they're making an informed decision?

[BagofHolly]

How would I feel if something went wrong? The burden of risk is on the mother, not the baby in ELCS. birth injuries are far less frequent in babies born by ELCS. And if something went wrong and it was me that had been damaged, I'd live with it. It'd be a rare situation where a mother is advised NOT to have a cs because it's too dangerous!

[KaraJS]

Because there are more risks with a csection it's major surgery, just because you make an informed choice does not mean it's the right one! And like I said there are not unlimited resources and should be available for those who need it when they need it not taken up by people who have decided they want a date for birth!

[scarecrow22]

Sympathise w OP. But just want to say my NCT group was nothing like the Po-faced natural-fetishist groups described. The tutor was v open to all possible experiences, by choice and because so much happens despite the best plans. She happily told us she'd had epidural for dc2. Of the six mums, three had ecs for different reasons, and three formula or mix fed. I can honestly say there is not one of us who judges the others for their choices and it has been a wonderful source of support and fun during these early months. I realise the NCT can be bad, but there are also good experiences to be had.

[thingsabeachanging]

Thats the reason they told you! The system, as it stands, is unlikely to grant a section in these circumstances unless there is a very exceptional reason for doing so. It is much more likely they would rather not discuss intimate physical and mental health issues with you. Any why should they? So you can judge?

[mrsrvc]

I have to say that I find that this level of judgement unbearably frustrating.

I have experienced two births and I have been "judged" for both. The first was a drug free natural home birth, which tragically ended in a shoulder dystocia after my son was unknowingly compressing his cord, resulting in my son being so brain damaged that he passed away a week after he was born. I was "judged" by the neonatologists and not so obviously ( but with the odd, would it have happened in hospital comments...) by some friends. (The answer is it could have, we will never know and that is something I live with daily).

The second time, I chose to have an ELCS. I was not told to have one, infact it was believed that the previous shoulder dystocia was probably caused by his impairment due to cord compression and so was unlikely to happen again, however we all agreed that I would probably be too scared to push. I decided that having believed all the NCT (although my teacher was a great support and still is) crap advice first time, I would rather take the risk to myself than to my baby. Despite this, I was still judged, and am amazed by the number of people who have asked me if I will do it "properly" or "naturally" the next time (most people do not know that I am expecting again).

What we all need to consider far more than we do is that the end result is the most important thing, a happy healthy baby. The birth experience is something that we seem to be using more and more as a way of being/ feeling superior to others.

I know that some people reading this will assume that my loss was somehow someones fault, or a rare occurance and some people will read it and feel slightly smug or judgemental, as well as the more obvious pity, and I know this because we are all brianwashed into believing that we can/ will get the birth we deserve/ desire.

If you do think like that maybe try to remember that it is not our birth, but infact our unborn childs.

An ELCS may not always be the best for the baby, but most of the time it is. Ask most consultants ( obstetric and neonatal) how they would have their babies (or their wives) and most of them will say by c section. And while VBAC is apparently a safe option, there are also LARGE risks involved, as there are with any birth.

[thingsabeachanging]

Mrsrvc I am so so sorry for your loss. Shoulder dystocia was, as you can probably tell, traumatising for me and we had a positive outcome. I cannot even begin to imagine how traumatised you must be.

Your post is, or should be, very thought provoking.

I hope it makes people stop and think before passing judgement.

I hope all goes well for you this time and congratulations!

[buttonmoon78]

Incidentally, my GP's wife had a section because they believe it was the safest way for the baby to be delivered. No medical reason at all, mental or physical.

Mrsrvc I wish I could say that I am shocked by the reactions you have faced. However, I know that it is only too often that other people automatically want to 'blame' someone. Which is unhelpful in the extreme especially if you are not blaming anyone yourself. I'm sorry for your loss and am pleased that you had a successful outcome this time. I hope you are able to enjoy this new pg.

[BagofHolly]

KaraJS
"just because you make an informed choice doesn't mean it's the right one."

What (on earth) do you mean? Can you tell me when an informed choice is the "wrong" one?

Mrsrvc, I'm so very sorry for your loss. How awful. And I'm so so pleased you posted. You are exactly why maternal request has to be taken into account, and a prime illustration of the tragic scenario which those who have posted that cs without medical indication shouldn't be allowed, are narrow minded fools.

[buttonmoon78]

I noticed that comment too BagofHolly. I just chose to ignore it because it was shite.

I think it has connotations with the time when drs made all our decisions for us... we were neither informed nor able to make our own decisions. What a shame we're no longer so ignorant

Or at least, most of us aren't.

[schmee]

Firstly PrincessScrumpy - OMG your midwife is INSANE. Suggesting that you have a VB and a CS for your twins, then care for them and your older child. Absolutely insane. And also ignores the fact that EMCS (which it would be even if planned if you see what I mean) carries far more risks than ELCS.

I had a thread about this issue a while ago, as I was genuinely shocked that people were so judgy that I didn't want to have a VBAC. The thing I learnt from that is people are under the misapprehension that c section is somehow worse or more risky for the baby. So they think you are choosing something for your own sake above the baby's. Not generally true at all, although in different pregnancies there may be elements that tip the balance either way.

Agree with BagofHolly's philosophy. I now deal with people asking me why I don't want to try to have a natural birth by saying "why would I"? If anyone asks me why I had a section the second time round, I plan to ask them if they'd query someone about their choice for a vaginal birth.

I'm actually partly opting for ERCS as my baby is enormous and I've been told I'm at high risk for shoulder dystocia, but actually I don't think this is anyone's business. ELCS is a valid birth choice, whether there is a medical reason for it or not.

[PrincessScrumpy]

It was the first time I've faced anything like it - everyone else has been supportive.

bagofholly I completely agree with you and that's part of the point, it was the first time I felt like I needed to justify it to these strangers and I no-one should be made to feel like that.

I also experienced a complete stranger asking if my ID twins were through IVF. Firstly what does it matter and secondly what does it have to do with her? It was at church so smiled and was polite rather than saying "oh, I just got a bit tipsy and f*** my dh on new year's eve!"

[schmee]

Get used to the IVF thing - I still get asked years on. I try to ignore it because what the hell does it matter how they got there in the first place.

[grubbalo]

Like you said in your second post Princess, they were probably most jealous of the private room anyway!

I think there is a whole separate thread of stupid questions you get asked when you're pregnant. I'm pregnant with DC3 and while I was totally expecting the "are you hoping for a girl?" question (I have 2 boys), I wasn't expecting the "was it planned?" one! Even if it wasn't planned (it was), as if I'd come out and tell people who aren't very close to me that e.g. the condom had split, no we'd got carried away etc etc.

The upshot of it all is that people seem to think they can say anything to you while you're pregnant, unfortunately. Just be confident in what you're doing - it would be a brave woman who said no they'd rather go for a natural birth if a consultant had advised otherwise (and a mad midwife who suggests that you have one VB and one CS - I take it she doesn't have children of her own?)

[schmee]

LOL at the "was it planned" one. Even my children's teacher asked me this in the middle of the classroom! I was very tempted to give her a blow by blow account in front of a bunch of four year olds, but decided against it!

[KaraJS]

What I ment was you can be given all the information to make a choice, that doesn't mean that what you choose may it be virginal or section is going to end in an uncomplicated birth! Also it's untrue to say only mothers suffer complications due to csection, you say your informed so you must know the statistics on that! I have not said that if you have had serious complications during a first birth or that you are high risk of having problems during labour you shouldn't opt for a csection, what we were talking about was someone's sil who needed a section due to breech baby deciding she wanted a section the 2 nd time due to not liking labour and yes I am against people choosing to have a csection for the reason the women gave me in the hospital for hers which was she was fed up waiting and knew if she went for csection shed have an earlier date and the reason I'm against it? Because if my cord had prolapsed half an hour later she would have been in surgery and I would have not had a theatre and my baby would have died! As it was I got her slot and she was abit peed of at being put back a day!

[bibbitybobbityhat]

Only place I've ever felt judged for having an elcs is on Mumsnet .

[PrincessScrumpy]

tbh, my natural birth with dd1 wasn't great - very fast but needed more than 30 stitches. This has influenced my decision too. I don't mind writing it on here but I don't really want to tell friends and family about the state my lady parts were left in after dd1's birth. I really don't think I want people to even think about my bits in that way! My mum knows and Granny but I think that's enough. If I was having a single baby I might still go for CS (my tear was apparently unusual - internal and down the sides) but would that mean explaining to everyone?! Thank goodness it's twins

[thingsabeachanging]

Exactly princess scrumpy not everyone wants to explain. Especially to another pregnant woman. How would you have felt kara if she had told you she was messed up down below or had a very traumatic first delivery? Be thankful she gave you a nice story so as not to scare the bejezus out of you!

[AlpinePony]

I want an elcs this time, medical issues aside, I don't want the pain of a vbac. I laboured via induction last time and the pain was terrifying - I was constantly contracting and yet my cervix decided not to join in and didn't dilate a dot! I'm not wimpy about pain, I only go to the doctor if something has fallen off, but my "labour" was horrendous. I know they're unlikely (very!) to induce me this time due to cs last time but I don't want to ever go through pain like that again. Well... it'd be different if I knew I'd get my healthy baby out of it but last time I was in labour my baby was dying.

So yes, I choose the "lazy/too posh/pain-free" option.

[nunnie]

Why do people have to justify their decisions? Frankly have other people got nothing better to do with their lives than to judge others.
When I am perfect and my life is perfect then I will have time to judge other as it stands I have littel time to know what's going on in my own life so couldn't give a flying scooby about others.
If someone wants to tell me that I have failed my son by having a section I will say that is your opinion and to be honest unless it is my sons opinion it realy doesn't count!

I had a VB with my daughter and all was perfect born in 2 hours 5 minutes no stitches skin to skin and was so proud of myself, then it all went downhill my placenta decided not to detatch itself and I was sat for 30 minutes legs a kimbo with the occasional head and hand down there having a tug. My baby was then taken off me and I was pushed to theatre where a man in a rubber glove upto his elbow had a root about in there and removed placenta with his hand resulting in a 2nd degree tear as well as not wanting to sit down for the fear of sucking up the chair! I will share this experience with anyone in the street at the top of my voice and maybe add in a bit more graphic images for their benefit, however no one ever asks about details of VB's they only want to know about c-sections because they are ignorant!
Rant over do apologise.

[otchayaniye]

What I don't understand is why anyone has to know, or why they bother asking? I never recall it coming up -- apart from some doulas (you can imagine their reaction to me telling them I really enjoyed my planned section for my first) at a breastfeeding cafe. Who asks you about your birth? I don't even remember mentioning it in passing to anyone outside my immediate circle. But then I'm a self-avowed curmudgeon with hardly any friends!

For what its worth, I have requested a repeat section for this baby due in a few weeks. The attrition rate of 30 percent is simply rubbish odds for me. I can understand NHS trusts encouraging vbac because 70 percent success rate is good odds for them. But I wouldn't bet on those odds for myself. I certainly wouldn't bet any money.

Add to that the risk albeit uncommon, but not super, super rare in statistical terms of a rupture (also increased by my Ashermans surgery) and the fact I can't be induced with prostoglandins if needed, tip me into wanting a section to minimise risk for me and more importantly, my baby. I'm not sentimental about birth, I just want a safe baby and me to be in a fit state.

But I have never felt judged, but then I don't really discuss it with anyone outside the circle of my husband, my mother and the medical profession. I have argued my case with back up from RCOG and NICE and although I have had the case for vbac put to me vigorously -- and I have seriously, and for a long time, considered it, have never felt talked down to, wimpish, or a failure.

Anyone who thinks all women can give birth naturally with the right encouragement is sadly ignorant and doesn't understand obstetrics. Humanity runs on a birth attrition rate of around 7 percent (that is babies who will die) and between 20-30 percent of births will require serious surgical intervention.

The request for c-sections has to be viewed in that light, together with the previous experience of traumatic labour ending in EMCS, or tokophobia, or a range of other 'softer' factors.

[BagofHolly]

KaraJS " Also it's untrue to say only mothers suffer complications due to csection, you say your informed so you must know the statistics on that!"

I didn't say that! I said that the burden of risk is on the mother. There is an increased risk of respiratory issues in babies born via cs but not increased mortality.

[otchayaniye]

Oh, and to add, although yes, there is an increased risk of respiratory issues with newborns born via section (because the fluid isn't expelled in the usual way) those risks are rare, and more importantly, in almost all cases, mild. This from my obstetrician friend (sadly works overseas otherwise I'd be dashing to her for my op)

[thingsabeachanging]

Oh and the funding issue is a red herring. Yes an uncomplicabed vb is cheaper than a cs, ones with complications are not. Nobody knows how that is going to go so the maths cant be worked out that easily.

On top of that if maternity units were better funded in the first place there is a chance that at least some women wouldnt be so traumatised, misinformed or worried to start with.