never knew people were so judgy about elecs - the looks I got!

[PrincessScrumpy]

We went on a tour of our hospital today with about 8 other couples. I mentioned privately to the midwife doing the tour that I was due to have a CS.

When in the delivery room she did the usual stuff then said "now you've chosen to have a CS - is there anybody else?" The answer was no but dh and I found the looks we got from the others really surprising. The mw was obviously aware as when she took us to theatre to show us where it was she made a point of asking where the twin mum was (me) and suddenly people were much nicer and started talking to me.

I thought it was just me being sensitive but it was dh who actually commented as we left the hospital.

I felt like shouting "I've had a natural birth with dd1 and had only 15 mins of gas and air - I have chosen a cs but only as it is based on medical advice from a consultant!"

Sorry for long one - it just really shocked me as they didn't know any details so why give scolding looks? Has anyone else faced this?

TBH I found it all very amusing as I am more than happy with the plan and my babies are far more important than a load of judgy mums who I've never met before.

[Vix286]

I am pleased I saw this thread, OP those people on your tour are idiots, glad to see you are sensible enough to ignore them!

The other posts though have helped me as I did go to NCT classes as me and DH are new to area and don't know anyone. Reading your posts have made me feel better about the impending labour (37+2)

I've always been of the "see how it goes and take the pain relief I need" school of thought I am no martyr trust me!

However those NCT lessons are a bit of a headf**k , I agree with another poster some of the ladies in my class are going to be gutted if they don't have a VB with a puff of gas and air and a cold flannel.

I did say to the teacher at one stage that people should be careful about what they say about CS and Epidurals as otherwise that led to women saying they "hadn't given birth properly / naturally" and I thought that was a bad thing.

However she reckons in every birth story that has an epidural / CS she can "pinpoint" the part where the woman was "not looked after properly" that led to it happening!

Anyway thanks again - I am off to sit back and watch some trashy Sky programme on the first day of my mat leave :)

[nunnie]

I think when people hear the word elcetive they ignorantly presume it is the woman that has elected. I have had a natural and an EMCS and am pregnant with number 3, was given the choice (mainly due to birthing naturally before and being a singleton) and decided to try a VBAC as I don't think a section is the easy way out by any means. However I am now back on the birth option unknown due to placenta problems which could take my choice away. I personally don't think I or anyone should have to explain their birthing options, it will iether come out an opening that is already there or one that has to be made but it will come out and surely that is all that should matter.
I find newly pregnant people (not all of course) who go to the ante-natal classes at my local hospital are all mentally prepared for the perfect birth with no problems before or after that they don't take the time to educate themselves on what happens if this isn't possible as that will never happen to them of course (I was one of these, but not to the extent where I judged anyone for their birthplan), I also personally found the ante-natal classes were reluctant to talk about what happens if something goes wrong etc for fear of scaring people which to me is counterproductive and I wasn't in the slightest bit prepared for a failed 3rd stage with my 1st whch meant me leaving my newborn baby and being taken to theatre to be honest I didn't even know it was possible for a placenta to stay attatched and not release itself.

Oh dear I waffled away there think I have some supressed (well not well supressed) issues!

You know why you are having a section and if other people can't see over their ignorant understanding of births and possible problems etc then I have to say it really is not you that has a problem. You are not failing your children or yourself you are doing what is best for you and your children.

My long post all boils down to ignore them, hard I know but hold your head up high and let them carry on with their tunnel vision approach.

[grubbalo]

DECLARES VESTED INTEREST IN NCT AS ACTIVE COMMITTE MEMBER!!

Guys, can we stop treating NCT as the enemy here? They are a charity who exist to give support to parents and parents-to-be. They are not some evil force out to get people who aren't hippys driving citroen 2cvs planning on breastfeeding their children till they're 12.

The whole point of NCT thinking is that back in the 60s, birth was getting too medicalised. For most women, birth should be (and is) a relatively straight forward process that doesn't require massive intervention. NCT's philosophy was (and still is) that women should have a choice about what they do - and although I am biased I think it's great they are around as we live in a country where giving birth at home is still unusual but not considered totally bonkers, where women can choose to have vaginal deliveries for breech babies (in some areas at least), and where VBACs are encouraged.

Of course with that way of thinking there are going to be some teachers who take things too far, and some couples who go thinking that birth is going to be some amazing experience where with a bit of deep breathing and aromatherapy candles things will all go along pain free. But not all classes are like that - in our class, 2 ladies knew from day 1 that they were going to have (elective) c-sections, and they were never made to feel bad or second-rate. In fact one of the most useful classes was where the teacher did a sort of mock-up of what it would be like in a c-section so we could see just how many people would be there.

I know one thing that NCT are trying to discourage is the sequence of events that can lead onto unnecessary emergency c-sections, i.e. unnecessary speeding up of labour via oxytocin which is more likely to lead to painful labours which is more likely to lead onto epidurals which are more likely to lead onto c-sections. Is that really such a bad thing that people are informed that by taking that first step (i.e. saying yes they'd like oxytocin) that that will increase the risk of intervention throughout?

My advice to the OP would be to be utterly confident in what you are doing - who gives a crap about what a load of strangers think? You need to do what is right for your baby and you, and if that is having a c-section then that's the way it is! I nearly had to have a c-section for my last baby (partially transverse) and am well aware that c-sections are not the easy way out. But everyone else, please try to stop making NCT the enemy - they really aren't, and for me at least were a great way of making friends (none of whom live solely on lentils, none of whom are still breastfeeding their children 4 years later).

[KaraJS]

I think it's pretty irrisposible for an organisation not to inform women that whatever you do in some cases things don't go how you plan , it must be a bloody shock for some, did anyone see one born every min where the women said her body made the baby her body would get it out and if it hurt shed have a paracetamol! None of my births went without complications the 1st was forcepts and I lost 4 and a half pints of blood 2 nd was surgery after due to retained placenta and 3rd was emc due to cord prolapse sometimes nature needs a helping hand!

[nunnie]

Mine wasn't an NCT class sorry I was just ranting and not reading properly mine was the hospital ante-natal classes. I have no experience of NCT classes.

[buttonmoon78]

Grubbalo In many ways I entirely agree with you. The NCT is a charitable, educational facility which has done and is doing good work in many ways. However, it does seem to be true that for a lot of people, the classes they attend fail to prepare them sufficiently for any outcome other than perfectly 'normal'.

I don't know what facilities they have for auditing their class leaders but perhaps they ought to be looking into a quality assurance system?

Yes, birth is nowadays often too medicalised. But there will always be those for whom there is no choice over the degree of medicalisation. And those people should never be made to feel that it is either their fault or that they are being judged for it.

[WriterofDreams]

To be fair grubbalo I didn't find the NHS antenatal classes that great either. But at least they just gave the facts, as in, if this happens that happens etc whereas I know my friend's NCT teacher was very opinionated and didn't just give information but also emphasised that natural childbirth with the least pain relief possible was the "right" thing to do. I would agree with Kara that this is very irresponsible and a charity with such a high profile as the NCT should do more to ensure their teachers aren't spouting shit. My heart went out to those ladies - rather than being happy about the fact that overall their births went well and their babies were healthy they felt like failures and on top of dealing with all the newborn struggles they had to deal with the unnecessary sadness given to them by that NCT teacher.

I know some groups are fab - another friend of mine had a great experience with the NCT - but from reading posts on here the judgemental type of teacher seems to be more common. That comment about meeting up even if you're bottle feeding is just The NCT should make their agenda clear to new mothers before they start the classes so that they can go into them knowing that the teacher may be expressing a viewpoint and isn't necessarily correct about everything.

[spookshowangel]

i had nct ante natal classes. charity???? i had to pay over a 100 pounds for them. they are good, very informative but they do tend to push the natural method. they fill a first time mums head with the confidence that this is an amazing experience that can be achieve with little more than the sweat on you brow deep breathing and gas and air at a push. because anything else is bad for the baby. i went in armed with my birth plan ( birth plan,lets be fair no one cares about a birth plan) and deep breathing. after 18 hrs of labour i never felt like such a failure when i had an epidural. what was worse was going to the after meeting and being told "never mind maybe next time you can do it naturally" and the other mums nodding along like i had done something wrong. so sorry to the person who works for them i do agree about the mediclisation and it great to see midwife led units but i can only go on personal experience.

[HSMM]

PrincessScrumpy - Good luck with your C section. The lady who got the strange looks on my hospital tour was the one having a home birth. Some people just don't realise that other people can make their own choices, or have their choices influenced by professionals. Each of us should do their best by their own family.

NB: I think I was lucky with my NCT class. It was run by a lady farmer, who was very down to earth and basically told us that if anything hurt, we should ask for pain relief.

[orangehead]

I think the reation of the people was awful, but possiby the mw worded it a bit wrong "now you've chosen to have a CS " I know techinacally you have choosen as it was your decision but obviously other factors involved in that decision. Not that you should have to justify yourself but perhaps she should of just stated your having a section and asked anyone else. But the word choosen puts a bit of a different spin on it.
Regarding nct, we covered sections and the teacher stated that it is very likely that at least one of us will have one. Infact three of us did in the end including me and she was very supportive to all three of us. She also talked realistically about future births and advised me to ask for pelvic xray as ds1 got stuck. Feel a bit nct is not universally like that as our teacher was fab

[JumpJockey]

I didn't do NCT classes first time round, but did do a 'refresher' before dd2, and the difference in attitude to what you're describing was amazing - of the 9 of us, there had been 2 HB, 3 CS and the rest 'normal' births with a greater or lesser degree of pain relief/assistance. Everyone was completely open minded about what would happen this time, and we spent half a session talking about CS as those of us who didn't have one first time wanted to know what would happen if we did need one this time. Maybe it's nothing to do with NCT 'lentil weaveriness' and more to do with first time mums' idealised visions of what they think birth 'should' be?

[grubbalo]

Just to clarify - I don't work for NCT - I volunteer for them

They are a charity in that they are a non-profit making organisation who use any money raised to assist people with parenting support, breastfeeding etc.

Classes cost money to run and so a charge is imposed, and if you are unable to afford the fees then they can reduce them massively.

Completely agree buttonmoon that there should be some form of assessment and please don't get me wrong, I went to a recent screening our branch held of "The business of being born" - I got very annoyed at the subsequent discussion about how terrible epidurals are - I could not have got through my first birth without one. However I would never for one minute think it was a bad thing to try to promote as least a medicalised experience as possible for those women who want that - yes we shouldn't be discouraging women to have epidurals etc but equally it shouldnt' be forced upon people, and people should be informed about the best way to avoid one if that is what they want.

It would be completely irresponsible not to tell people about potential consequences of what could happen, but equally it would be irresponsible to fill people with scare stories. However there seem to be a lot of NCT teachers being condemned here by people who didn't actually go to the classes themselves which seems slightly unfair.

My last point still stands - stuff anyone else and if you had an epidural / c-section / whatever! then so long as you are happy then who cares. Be confiident in your own decisions and don't let other people make you feel like a failure or like you had a lesser experience. I've had a birth under an epidural and also a totally natural birth - they both resulted in the most amazing little boys and I don't feel like one was a more "real" experience or that I did it "better" second time round.

[orangehead]

nct teacher also told us that if baby was back to back or labour was prolonged it is highly unlikely you can get along on just gas and air so keep an open mind

[TransatlanticCityGirl]

I am not at all surprised by the way people judge whose who have ELCS. I am planning on having an epidural and I've already had the "WHAT? You are PLANNING on having an epidural?!?!?" conversation a few times. God forbid. So if I'm getting that kind of reaction for choosing pain relief I can only imagine what women having ELCS get.

Grubbalo: "For most women, birth should be (and is) a relatively straight forward process that doesn't require massive intervention."

I actually attended a rather good NCT course in the sense that the course leader did not push the natural route too much so I never felt the leader was judging me. Which is a good thing, because out of my course of 7 other couples (all were planning natural births) 5 have had to have unexpected medical interventions including ventouse, forceps, EMCS etc. 2 have not yet delivered. Therefore so far the rate of women in this particular small group requiring medical intervention is 100% so far. I think if they had attended a course with someone who did push the natural route a bit more they would have felt like utter failures and looked back on their labours with much regret.

[babyonbord]

People can be so stupid, there are no prizes for how you give birth, the only prize is a nice healthy baby or in your case 2 (how awesome you're having twins Little bit jealous on the 2 4 1) i had a "natural" birth with all the drugs that i could come by and am planning on a "natural" birth this time (i have no medical reason to have a section) but if i need a c section then i need a c section, i don't care how i give birth, the only thing i care about is that i get my baby at the end of it. Ignore people who are being judgemental as long as you've got your babies then what the hell else matters. Good luck xxxx

[babyonbord]

the women who claim to have just had gas and air are the ones who were in labour for a couple of hours, once you reach the 26 hour mark i think it's safe to say even the "bravest" would be demanding an epidural, (my labour was 26 hours long (12 of those is established labour) and after about 18 hours i had an epi, i wouldn't have coped without one i was exhausted by that point but even i find smug women judging me for that but sod them the way i see it is you wouldn't get your teeth pulled without pain relief so why suffer labour without it

[grubbalo]

Hey Transatlantic - to be honest I don't really see an epidural as massive intervention - and I have had one too - and I couldn't have done without it.
If you watch "The business of being born" though you will see that in the US birth is seen as so medicalised that the idea you could even contemplate giving birth without one is just crazy, the idea of having a midwife assisted birth is very unusual (most women have consultants). I just mean by saying that birth should be (and in most cases is) straight forward is that it doesn't need to be built up to be some massive drama. Yes of course it can be and people should be aware of the risks, but people do need to remember that as a human race we have given birth for years and years without all the intervention that exists now.

And I totally agree no-one gets a prize for giving birth naturally, but just as we shouldn't tell people who have had an epidural that they have "cheated" by giving birth that way, we should also be encouraging those women who don't intend to have one or would rather not have one how to do it that way.

Any babyonbord you are dead right - that was the biggest difference between my labours - one was 16 hours and one was 4 - guess which one was much more bearable and I managed on gas and air for!

[KaraJS]

I agree, my 2 nd was just gas and air but it was only the last hour that I needed anything for the pain, with my first it was alot longer and I was exhausted by the time I had an epidural, it was the tiredness of prolonged labour more than the pain that I found hardest to cope with, don't think I'd have managed without the epidural

[thingsabeachanging]

Honestly if I am ever lucky enough to get, and stay, pregnant again anyone who gives me odd looks when told I WILL be having a CS witll be told to "bite me".

If the matter is pushed (excuse the pun) any further I will personally explain shoulder dystocia is VERY graphic detail! Esp the bit where i didnt get to see or touch dd for hours after the birth and i didnt even get to give her her first feed. People who judge must come from a very lucky place where everything goes as planned from the off.

[DuelingFanjo]

I didn't think you could choose one on the NHS. Sounds to me like you were advised to have one.

[DuelingFanjo]

And re the whole VB vs CS thing. Pplease, why can't people just accept that there are different births and every one is different. I wanted a VB with nothing but gas and air but ended up with an epidural, forceps and a baby in neonatal. I am very glad I narrowly missed the C-Section because I would have hated the recovery time but I signed the consent incase I needed one becaue my baby was in distress.

I think people who can have a totally natural birth are lucky but I don't beat myself up about not having one myself, and I even went to NCT classes! At the class I went to they did a bit on C-sections which was really helpful when I ended up in theatre.

[BagofHolly]

Thelittlestkiwi, "Yep, I get judgy face from people too and have quickly learned to say C-section for breech."

Not a dig at you at all, but I think wha you said has encapsulated a lot of people's attitude to CS. The point I was trying to make earlier is that you, and everyone else shouldn't have to say ANYTHING about why they're having a cs. I don't think it's necessary to make a distinction between medical requirement and maternal request - they're as valid as each other.

[changer22]

I had an elective CS with DD on medical advice following a traumatic delivery with my first. When I complained about the pain after her birth, the MW on the ward said (snidely) 'Well, what did you expect having a c-section?' with the clear implication that I had somehow thought I would sidestep the pain by choosing to have a CS. Then she looked at my chart and realised I hadn't had any pain meds for 8 hours (instead of 4)! I do feel I was badly treated by the postnatal ward staff on the whole.

[Nefret]

OMG I would never judge someone for choosing to have a c-section, how can anyone know the reasons behind it?

I had my first DD by emergency c-section after a failed induction so with my 2nd baby I had said I would not go through all that again, if she didn't come naturally i was going to have a c-section.

As it was she was born 2 weeks early so it never came to the decision. I did choose to have an epidural though and I don't care if anyone judges me on that either. I'm sure everyone would like to have a straight forward natural birth with no pain relief but things just don't always work out that way.

If someone chooses to have a c-section it is going to be for good medical reasons and no-one should be judge that! The main thing is mother and baby are both safe and well, it doesn't matter what kind of birth.

[babyonbord]

i think we should just be thankful that we live in a world now where if it is needed we can have medical intervention to help save our lives and the lives of our babies because the women who have had c sections there is every chance that if we lived in a world where they weren't available would not have survived. Childbirth is dangerous it carries huge risks and always has done, a huge number of women have died during childbirth in the past and some women still do today, personally i'd rather have a c section and be alive, women who don't need medical intervention are no better than those that do they are just luckier.