never knew people were so judgy about elecs - the looks I got!

[PrincessScrumpy]

We went on a tour of our hospital today with about 8 other couples. I mentioned privately to the midwife doing the tour that I was due to have a CS.

When in the delivery room she did the usual stuff then said "now you've chosen to have a CS - is there anybody else?" The answer was no but dh and I found the looks we got from the others really surprising. The mw was obviously aware as when she took us to theatre to show us where it was she made a point of asking where the twin mum was (me) and suddenly people were much nicer and started talking to me.

I thought it was just me being sensitive but it was dh who actually commented as we left the hospital.

I felt like shouting "I've had a natural birth with dd1 and had only 15 mins of gas and air - I have chosen a cs but only as it is based on medical advice from a consultant!"

Sorry for long one - it just really shocked me as they didn't know any details so why give scolding looks? Has anyone else faced this?

TBH I found it all very amusing as I am more than happy with the plan and my babies are far more important than a load of judgy mums who I've never met before.

[buttonmoon78]

And in those days there was no legion of MN buddies saying 'oh yes you did'. It's really sad that as a group of women we can become so polarised about something so fundamentally natural - procreation.

You'd think as it's only women that do it we'd stick together but no, as often happens with humans, we end up tearing eachother apart and leaving the other person feeling hurt.

V

[lolajane2009]

I really think an elcs for a good reason is a lifesaver, literally in some cases.

My mother had an emergency cs at 32 weeks in 1971 for my husband as she had blood pressure issues and if she hadn't they both probably would have died. Two years later she had my husbands brothers and if she had waited for a normal delievey both her and my brother in law would have definately died.

I have been told by her that she was told after my husbands birth that she never really gave birth because she had a cs so the judgement is nothing new.

[Booboostoo]

buttonmoon78 LOL! It was 5 weeks ago and luckily during the day time so no "bring your own torch" needed!

In general, I find the arguments against personal choice ELCS to be rather poor:

• "It's unnatural": so is most of medicine. Nature hurts, maims and kills.
  

• "It's costly": aside from the private option if you weigh the cost of an unproblematic ELCS against the cost of looking after even one oxygen deprived, brain damaged baby whose problems were caused by forceps for example for the rest of its life, ELCS is incredibly cheap.
  

• "It's risky": only when you lump emergency and elective CS together. If you do not the risks seems to go: uncomplicated natural, ELCS, EMCS, complicated natural.
  

• "It's indulgent": mmm, who said labour must be unpleasant???
  

• "Why should you have a choice over this?": Why should you have any medical choices? Those of us unfortunate enough to have breast cancer, for example, at least get a choice between a full mastectomy, a lumpectomy or even no treatment, why should pregnant women not be allowed to choose between the options available? And in the case of pregnancy denying one option implies that you force the woman into another option as backing out of the whole pregnancy (i.e.inaction) is no longer available, i.e. by denying CS you force into VB.

[buttonmoon78]

Kara have you read the new NICE draft guidelines? They suggest that much more emphasis should be placed on a woman's choice disregarding medical reasons.

[thingsabeachanging]

I had cluster contractions for 18 hours in a holding area without so much as a whiff of g&a because the hospital had run out. thankfully when they eventually did find me a room they blissfully got me an epidural too becuase i was exhausted and not dialating as quickly as they would have liked so I had to have synto too. That was nothing to do with cs rates it was about piss poor funding.

[KaraJS]

And even after going to theatre to have my bits sewn back together and only being able to wee on all fores in the bath for the first two weeks I still recovered quicker than with my emcs tho I'm hoping this was because they cut me from hip to hip and also due to the hospital infection I caught! I'm hopeing this time it will be a normal length cut and recovery time will be faster, but I'm not going to hold my breath

[thingsabeachanging]

You are aguing for change, why not argue for the right thing. And as far as I am concerned women and children are already suffering for it.

[KaraJS]

Yes but it won't happen will it, that's why NICE and WHO have bought out new guidelines to help encourage and support women to have v births there not going to just give more money for funding more theatres and staff and like the mw said at the hospital I went to at some point women and babies will suffer because of it

[thingsabeachanging]

Oh and on a side note the fact that I had an epesiotomy, a third degree tear and so many other tears my fanjo looked like a clock face are NOT factors in my wanting a cs for any future deliveries. I am scared of losing my baby!

[thingsabeachanging]

Lack of space and theatre nurses is all about funding. More money means more space and more theatre nurses.

My point being if maternity units were properly funded to start with it wouldnt be an issue, AND it would probably work out cheaper in the long run.

Women get a choice, they get proper treatment, less goes wrong and the costs are comparible or even less. Everyone would be a winner dont you think?

[KaraJS]

Thingsabeachanging who said anything about the cost of vdelivery compared to csection? I said they don't have enough theatre space or staff to cope with demand, and my first baby was 11lb2 and caused a 3rd degree tear so no it wouldn't have scared me, my second baby was smaller tho and I didn't need stitching so things don't always follow down the same track

[buttonmoon78]

Good job you've already had it done Booboostoo. After all, I'd be worried now that the lights would go off half way through, being as they've run out of money to pay the bills

Congrats anyway - I assume that was quite recent?

[Booboostoo]

I've been getting the same reactions, but it's very much a cultural issue. I chose ELCS (because I wanted to because I thought it was the best option for me and my baby), in Greence where I gave birth no one batted an eye-lid, plenty of women choose CS there and plenty of doctors oblige them. In France they start of by commiserating with me on the CS, when I point out I chose it and thought it was the best experience ever, they all point out that I wouldn't get that choice in France looking very sour faced indeed - good to know, that's why I went elsewhere! Vive la EU!

[buttonmoon78]

Sounds like I could be justifying my own c-section just shortly.

Just been to MW, baby is absolutely centrally engaged. OP. I am terrified of another OP delivery (having done it twice - last time knackered my back for ever). My lovely (v pro-natural birth) MW has just arranged an appointment with the lovely (v pro-section) obs for Thursday pm to see about changing my induction date (Fri 15th) to a section.

I am so relieved I feel about 6" taller from the weight lifting off my shoulders

[thingsabeachanging]

Oh and the funding issue is a red herring. Yes an uncomplicabed vb is cheaper than a cs, ones with complications are not. Nobody knows how that is going to go so the maths cant be worked out that easily.

On top of that if maternity units were better funded in the first place there is a chance that at least some women wouldnt be so traumatised, misinformed or worried to start with.

[otchayaniye]

Oh, and to add, although yes, there is an increased risk of respiratory issues with newborns born via section (because the fluid isn't expelled in the usual way) those risks are rare, and more importantly, in almost all cases, mild. This from my obstetrician friend (sadly works overseas otherwise I'd be dashing to her for my op)

[BagofHolly]

KaraJS " Also it's untrue to say only mothers suffer complications due to csection, you say your informed so you must know the statistics on that!"

I didn't say that! I said that the burden of risk is on the mother. There is an increased risk of respiratory issues in babies born via cs but not increased mortality.

[otchayaniye]

What I don't understand is why anyone has to know, or why they bother asking? I never recall it coming up -- apart from some doulas (you can imagine their reaction to me telling them I really enjoyed my planned section for my first) at a breastfeeding cafe. Who asks you about your birth? I don't even remember mentioning it in passing to anyone outside my immediate circle. But then I'm a self-avowed curmudgeon with hardly any friends!

For what its worth, I have requested a repeat section for this baby due in a few weeks. The attrition rate of 30 percent is simply rubbish odds for me. I can understand NHS trusts encouraging vbac because 70 percent success rate is good odds for them. But I wouldn't bet on those odds for myself. I certainly wouldn't bet any money.

Add to that the risk albeit uncommon, but not super, super rare in statistical terms of a rupture (also increased by my Ashermans surgery) and the fact I can't be induced with prostoglandins if needed, tip me into wanting a section to minimise risk for me and more importantly, my baby. I'm not sentimental about birth, I just want a safe baby and me to be in a fit state.

But I have never felt judged, but then I don't really discuss it with anyone outside the circle of my husband, my mother and the medical profession. I have argued my case with back up from RCOG and NICE and although I have had the case for vbac put to me vigorously -- and I have seriously, and for a long time, considered it, have never felt talked down to, wimpish, or a failure.

Anyone who thinks all women can give birth naturally with the right encouragement is sadly ignorant and doesn't understand obstetrics. Humanity runs on a birth attrition rate of around 7 percent (that is babies who will die) and between 20-30 percent of births will require serious surgical intervention.

The request for c-sections has to be viewed in that light, together with the previous experience of traumatic labour ending in EMCS, or tokophobia, or a range of other 'softer' factors.

[nunnie]

Why do people have to justify their decisions? Frankly have other people got nothing better to do with their lives than to judge others.
When I am perfect and my life is perfect then I will have time to judge other as it stands I have littel time to know what's going on in my own life so couldn't give a flying scooby about others.
If someone wants to tell me that I have failed my son by having a section I will say that is your opinion and to be honest unless it is my sons opinion it realy doesn't count!

I had a VB with my daughter and all was perfect born in 2 hours 5 minutes no stitches skin to skin and was so proud of myself, then it all went downhill my placenta decided not to detatch itself and I was sat for 30 minutes legs a kimbo with the occasional head and hand down there having a tug. My baby was then taken off me and I was pushed to theatre where a man in a rubber glove upto his elbow had a root about in there and removed placenta with his hand resulting in a 2nd degree tear as well as not wanting to sit down for the fear of sucking up the chair! I will share this experience with anyone in the street at the top of my voice and maybe add in a bit more graphic images for their benefit, however no one ever asks about details of VB's they only want to know about c-sections because they are ignorant!
Rant over do apologise.

[AlpinePony]

I want an elcs this time, medical issues aside, I don't want the pain of a vbac. I laboured via induction last time and the pain was terrifying - I was constantly contracting and yet my cervix decided not to join in and didn't dilate a dot! I'm not wimpy about pain, I only go to the doctor if something has fallen off, but my "labour" was horrendous. I know they're unlikely (very!) to induce me this time due to cs last time but I don't want to ever go through pain like that again. Well... it'd be different if I knew I'd get my healthy baby out of it but last time I was in labour my baby was dying.

So yes, I choose the "lazy/too posh/pain-free" option.

[thingsabeachanging]

Exactly princess scrumpy not everyone wants to explain. Especially to another pregnant woman. How would you have felt kara if she had told you she was messed up down below or had a very traumatic first delivery? Be thankful she gave you a nice story so as not to scare the bejezus out of you!

[PrincessScrumpy]

tbh, my natural birth with dd1 wasn't great - very fast but needed more than 30 stitches. This has influenced my decision too. I don't mind writing it on here but I don't really want to tell friends and family about the state my lady parts were left in after dd1's birth. I really don't think I want people to even think about my bits in that way! My mum knows and Granny but I think that's enough. If I was having a single baby I might still go for CS (my tear was apparently unusual - internal and down the sides) but would that mean explaining to everyone?! Thank goodness it's twins

[bibbitybobbityhat]

Only place I've ever felt judged for having an elcs is on Mumsnet .

[KaraJS]

What I ment was you can be given all the information to make a choice, that doesn't mean that what you choose may it be virginal or section is going to end in an uncomplicated birth! Also it's untrue to say only mothers suffer complications due to csection, you say your informed so you must know the statistics on that! I have not said that if you have had serious complications during a first birth or that you are high risk of having problems during labour you shouldn't opt for a csection, what we were talking about was someone's sil who needed a section due to breech baby deciding she wanted a section the 2 nd time due to not liking labour and yes I am against people choosing to have a csection for the reason the women gave me in the hospital for hers which was she was fed up waiting and knew if she went for csection shed have an earlier date and the reason I'm against it? Because if my cord had prolapsed half an hour later she would have been in surgery and I would have not had a theatre and my baby would have died! As it was I got her slot and she was abit peed of at being put back a day!

[schmee]

LOL at the "was it planned" one. Even my children's teacher asked me this in the middle of the classroom! I was very tempted to give her a blow by blow account in front of a bunch of four year olds, but decided against it!