never knew people were so judgy about elecs - the looks I got!

[PrincessScrumpy]

We went on a tour of our hospital today with about 8 other couples. I mentioned privately to the midwife doing the tour that I was due to have a CS.

When in the delivery room she did the usual stuff then said "now you've chosen to have a CS - is there anybody else?" The answer was no but dh and I found the looks we got from the others really surprising. The mw was obviously aware as when she took us to theatre to show us where it was she made a point of asking where the twin mum was (me) and suddenly people were much nicer and started talking to me.

I thought it was just me being sensitive but it was dh who actually commented as we left the hospital.

I felt like shouting "I've had a natural birth with dd1 and had only 15 mins of gas and air - I have chosen a cs but only as it is based on medical advice from a consultant!"

Sorry for long one - it just really shocked me as they didn't know any details so why give scolding looks? Has anyone else faced this?

TBH I found it all very amusing as I am more than happy with the plan and my babies are far more important than a load of judgy mums who I've never met before.

[EvenLessNarkyPuffin]

Elective, truly elective CS is fine. It's no-one else's business. And yes, the NCT do set some women up to feel like failures for not 'coping', and they need to look at reviewing how individual teachers address this but having seen One Born Every Minute US, we need natural childbirth advocates. Without a group representing the alternative, you get a system where women are booked in, put into bed and given a drip to speed up labour, an epidural, and monitored until it's time to put them into stirrups. The lentil weaving is there to counterbalance the medicalisation.

[lexxity]

I've had 2 CS and I've heard just about every comment on the planet about my "choice".

After DS1, ELCS, I was very let down and upset. This was because of the NHS antenatal classes and how I should expect an airy fairey natural birth with candles and no pain relief. No mention was ever made of CS or if things don't go right. When people commented I felt guilty for not having a natural birth.

DS2 was 19 hours of regular contractions, not established (even though contracting 3 in 10 but not dilating past 2cm), spd causing more pain than the actual contractions, baby heart rate dropping alarmingly with every single contraction and not recovering sufficiently and I was told that I was having a EMCS. I can honestly, hand on heart, say it was the best choice and I wish I'd just gone with the ELCS instead.

Now I just say section and quite frankly it's none of your business and if I have another baba it'll be an ELCS with no quibbling.

[babyonbord]

I think the problem is that the women who have c sections for legit medical reasons ie twins, breech, traumatic previous birth experience etc get their names tarred with the same brush as those few women who opt for c sections against medical advice because it's "easier" (i know a few women like this) C scetions are after all an operation which come with huge risks of their own, infection, scarring etc etc as well as a longer and more painful recovery, and being more expensive for the nhs than a "natural birth". My sister in law (who for the record is a bitch and i can't stand her) had a emcs with her first baby last april as she was breech, she has been advised by the hospital staff that it would be better for her to have a vbas this time round (she is due in august 3 weeks after me) as the risks are a lot lower she has refused to listen and is demanding a c section as she claims last time was "too painful" i felt like punching her when she told me this of course it was f*ing painful its childbirth not a bloody walk in the park, mine hurt too you know. My point being that women like her tar her opt for c sections without a valid reason are the reson that a lot of women who needed to have a c section are judged, which really isn't fair.

[KaraJS]

I know someone who works in the nhs and they have said that where we live this is no longer going to happen, if the doctor advises a vbac that is what you will have, unless their is a medical reason people will no longer get to choose csection just because they needed one before, I don't know how this will work in practice I'm sure there will be people like your sil who will try demanding one but I think the new policy is right, if I could have a vbac this time I would but due to how far across I was cut and how high into the womb it's not an option for me, we haven't told anyone I'm pg again yet so I haven't had any comments, I don't know what people will comment on more the elcs I'll be having or that there will only be 11 months between babies!

[BagofHolly]

babyonbord, how bloody judgmental of you!

"she has been advised by the hospital staff that it would be better for her to have a vbas this time round (she is due in august 3 weeks after me) as the risks are a lot lower she has refused to listen and is demanding a c section as she claims last time was "too painful" i felt like punching her when she told me this of course it was f*ing painful its childbirth not a bloody walk in the park, mine hurt too you know. My point being that women like her tar her opt for c sections without a valid reason are the reson that a lot of women who needed to have a c section are judged, which really isn't fair."

Valid reason? How about maternal choice? There's a novel idea!

[TransatlanticCityGirl]

KaraJS I suspect ELCS will always be available to those who can afford them.

EvenLessNarkyPuffin you can't possibly watch One Born Every Minute USA and get a true sense of what it's like to give birth in the US. First of all, the US is a massive country and the "medicalisation" of childbirth varies enormously state by state. Second, their induction rates are about the same as they are in the UK (even though just about every woman featured on that show is induced), however their use of epidural is nationally higher than it is here (with some state variance - some states are the same or lower). Third, their stillbirth rate is lower than in the UK (maternal deaths higher).

Here in the UK we like to demonize the US for their medicalised practices. I grew up in Canada, which like the UK has a free universal healthcare system (so no $$ incentive to medicalise) yet the birthing practices are a lot more similar to the US. For example, I know very few people who didn't have an epidural unless of course there was no time. Even my grandmother had 6 children that way! A drip is normal to have during childbirth too. And Canada also has a lower stillbirth rate and maternal death rate than either the UK or the US. Go figure.

I do agree very much that women should have options, and birthing doesn't HAVE to be done in a hospital. Therefore I think it's great to have information on all the different choices available, and women should be supported no matter which choice they make.

But I think shows like OBEM (whether the US or UK version) make childbirth look like a very scary thing to do and I wouldn't base any of my opinions about childbirth on them. I've not seen the Business of Making Babies yet but as I understand it, Ricki Lake produced that film with a very clear agenda as a result of her own negative birthing experience. Therefore I don't think it can be taken at face value either.

[KaraJS]

I don't think you should have the maternal choice to have a csection, after all it's major surgery and should be based on a valid medical reason that should be decided by a consultant who is more aware of the risks to the mother and child, what happens if a person decides on a csection because they've had one before and that's the way they want it and something goes wrong? Who's held accountable then?

[thingsabeachanging]

I would take acountability on that one. Having had 1 baby suffer through shoulder dystocia it is yet another risk factor which says I am likely to have another. The risks are mainly to the babys life (discounting many tears, blood loss, immediate surgery and blood transfusion for me). The risks with a cs is mainly to the mother. I choose to take the risk onto myself rather than the baby. I will beat down anyone who tells me I cannot do that.

[thingsabeachanging]

Or judges me for doing so.

[KaraJS]

That's different, your at high risk of it happening again,

[skandi1]

Princess, just awful! Don't worry about them. As someone else here said, half of them will end up with an EMCS and probably end up formula feeding too (shock horror). The problem is theirs as they will be wholly unprepared for anything but a VB and could end up with PND after their EMCS.....

Its the midwives who feel the need to comment on CS in this way which worries me! They really ought to know better on the basis that many lives are saved each year by CS.

I had EMCS after vvv long labour with DD and I, on more than one occassion, was treated as if I hadn't tried so to speak. The second community midwife who came to see me 5 days after DDs birth, looked at my notes (which clearly stated EMCS) and said: "too posh to push dear". DH got her out of the house quickly!

I am now 39 weeks with DC2. As I didn't enjoy the EMCS experienced I had hoped for a VBAC but have been booked in for a ELCS at the end of this week. Consultant and midwife feel DC2 will be too large at 10lbs to safely attempt VBAC given EMCS less than 2 years ago. But I am already steeling myself against the inevitable comments which will follow.

I honestly don't understand why so many seemingly normal people and healthcare professionals are so snippy about a CS.

Princess, enjoy your pregnancy and your calm CS!!

[BagofHolly]

KaraSJ, it's a good job that NICE and RCOG disagree with you! Maternal choice has to be taken into account and if a consultant refuses, they should refer to an alternative consultant. Personally I think that the idea of women being forced to give birth one way over another is abhorrent. We are capable of making informed choices and one of those choices should be how we deliver our children. It's not as simplistic as going against medical opinion - in some cases, there's not a lot to be gained by delivery either way so if a woman wants a cs, let her have it! And a previous cs in some cases can be an indication for subsequent cs, eh if there's a risk of scar rupture etc.

And what about women who physically are perfectly capable of delivering by vb, and yet for psychological/emotional reasons don't want that? Again down to informed choice.

[KaraJS]

Nice states that Maternal request is not on it's own a reason for cs, someone who suffers fear of childbirth should be offered counselling first and anyway we were talking about someone who wants a cs because they had one with a breach last time even tho this one isn't nice also say that the risk of respiratory morbidity is increased in baby's born by csection

[thingsabeachanging]

Oh its ok to want a cs because I previous sd is a risk factor for another one. What if it weren't? It wouldn't be ok if the meere thought of another vb turns me into a quivering sobbing wreck? My head pounds, heart races and knees go weak. Nor the fact that I cant even WATCH OBEM because I found myself holding my breath from the moment the women start pushing to the babies first cry (which can be quite a while) terrified the baby wont make it, despite me KNOWING they wouldnt show that on tv. And sobbing all the while in my own personal little torturous punishment making myself watch it.

Well thats going to make for a promising birth experience isnt it.

[thingsabeachanging]

Oh its ok to want a cs because I previous sd is a risk factor for another one. What if it weren't? It wouldn't be ok if the meere thought of another vb turns me into a quivering sobbing wreck? My head pounds, heart races and knees go weak. Nor the fact that I cant even WATCH OBEM because I found myself holding my breath from the moment the women start pushing to the babies first cry (which can be quite a while) terrified the baby wont make it, despite me KNOWING they wouldnt show that on tv. And sobbing all the while in my own personal little torturous punishment making myself watch it.

Well thats going to make for a promising birth experience isnt it.

[thingsabeachanging]

Oh its ok to want a cs because I previous sd is a risk factor for another one. What if it weren't? It wouldn't be ok if the meere thought of another vb turns me into a quivering sobbing wreck? My head pounds, heart races and knees go weak. Nor the fact that I cant even WATCH OBEM because I found myself holding my breath from the moment the women start pushing to the babies first cry (which can be quite a while) terrified the baby wont make it, despite me KNOWING they wouldnt show that on tv. And sobbing all the while in my own personal little torturous punishment making myself watch it.

Well thats going to make for a promising birth experience isnt it.

[thingsabeachanging]

Sorry phone went a bit mad then

[kickingking]

Oh, people love to judge. I had an elcs because I was offered one as I am diabetic and I chose that over a very managed induction.

I ended up telling most people the baby was breech because of the judging.

Lots of people seem to really enjoy telling me about their ALL NATURAL labours. But if I dare to reveal that I breastfed for 12 months, I am being smug.

Apparently, it's OK to brag about natural labours, but not natural feeding

[KaraJS]

Your emotional state would be another medical reason to be allowed a cs wouldn't it? I thought you believed that everyone should have the choice even if there was no medical reason?

[thingsabeachanging]

So if its ok to consider emotional states as a medical reason what isn't ok.

If a woman wants a cs because she thinks it is an easier option we should question why she feels like that. It takes quite some emotional state to think major abdominal surgery is the easy way out dont you think?

Why shouldnt a woman who has been given, and has considered, all the facts have the right to choose. Who should judge her level of trauma or emotional issues?

[KaraJS]

How about the fact that the nhs doesn't have endless resources eg theatres staff for everyone to decide to have a csection? When I had mine they had staff for 3 theatres , two were in use and I had the 3rd, I think I'd have been pretty peed off if a couple of theatres had been taken up by people wanting one because they have the right, other theatres full of emcs and my child dying of cord prolapse due to there being no more theatres,

[thingsabeachanging]

So who decides whos emotional state is medically important? You? Or are you going to pay for therapists? Why not use that money to fund better equipt maternity units?

For what its worth my vb cost the nhs more than a cs so its not that clear cut is it.

[thingsabeachanging]

Do you really know anyone who has wanted a cs for no reason? Maybe there are reasons you dont know about. Maybe everyone should have a label "I want a cs because of a prior traumatic birth" or "i want a cs because i have suffered a sexual assault and the thought of a vb makes me feel like its happening all over again" or "I want a cs because I am cannot get over the fear of a rupture following a prior cs"

I cannot imagine anyone would choose a cs fo NO reason.

[BagofHolly]

KaraJS, you're right, maternal request ALONE isn't an indication for cs but it must be taken into consideration. There's a world of difference between tokophobia, depression, anxiety etc, and other diagnosed mental health issues, and just not wanting to give birth vaginally, having absorbed the facts available.
For example, if you've had a bad time of it getting and staying pregnant. Although a totally unmedicated, non instrumental vaginal birth is pro sly best for all concerned if everything else is equal, no one can guarantee that as an outcome. So there may be circumstances in which the right choice for an individual woman is ELCS, maternal request. I don't think there's anything contentious about that and yet so many have posted on here about "valid reason." Doesn't make sense!

[KaraJS]

I have friends who chose sections 2 nd and 3 rd times round because they wanted a date for the birth, didn't want to go over due, spend 16 hours in labour etc I also met to women in hospital that did the same thing even tho the consultant had informed them that a vbac would be a safe route they both knew a csection would mean having the baby earlier than possibly waiting for the natural way, although I wouldn't say anything to them, after all it's not my business ! I don't agree with a system that will allow this, can you imagen how awful you'd feel if you chose a section for these reasons and something went wrong?