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Pregnancy

Talk about every stage of pregnancy, from early symptoms to preparing for birth.

Breech at 36 weeks.

65 replies

GlitteryBalls · 16/12/2010 16:01

Went for 36 week MW apt yesterday. Everything thing fine and perfectly normal just as it has been throughout whole of pregnancy, BUT MW thinks baby is breech atm. Typical as at every apt up til now it has been head down!

Have to go for scan next week as I will be officially full-term/37 weeks, then they will try and turn it if it is breech. She explained that most breech babies are delivered via CS and that sometimes they can be delivered vaginally with an epidural and little pushing, just using contractions and gravity. But of course I am now thinking of lots of questions I should have asked her so am turning to you lot!

I am trying not to let it worry me too much, but I think up til I have just taken it for granted that evrything would go fairly according to plan as I have been very lucky up til now. Did anyone have a baby presenting as breech at 36 weeks that then turned on it's own? Or is it likely it will stay that way now? Also, is it likely that the turning will work? Also, has anyone donw those exercises where you stick you bum in the air on all fours and had any success?

In terms of delivery, is a CS inevitable? Why do they tend to do them? Is it because the labour more longer/painful or is it because you are more likely to get "messed up" down there and need episiotomies etc? Also, if they decide at 37 weeks that I am breech, will they wait for me to go into labour/go to my due date? Or will I be pretty much whisked in straightaway?

Sorry about all the questions! Just didn't think to ask at the time and don't think I want to wait a week to find out!

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thereisalightanditnevergoesout · 16/12/2010 16:31

I'm 38 weeks and my baby was breech at 36 weeks and at 37 weeks I had an ECV (which was successful) and as far as I know he's still head down (I mean, he couldn't be bothered to move in the 3 weeks we knew about it, so not sure he'll be bothered to move back!). There is a very small risk (1 in 1000) of needing a EMCS after this procedure - but I hope that reassures you it's a tiny risk.

No - CS is not inevitable (my aunt is a MW and assures me vaginal birth can be done) - you will need an obstetrician and a MW present and it'll have to be in hospital with an epidural.

orangutangerine · 16/12/2010 16:33

I had a smooth and successful ECV at 39 weeks and went on to have a normal birth.

me23 · 16/12/2010 17:01

I'm sorry but a vaginal breech birth certainly does not have to be in hospital with An epidural and an obstetrician, women have breech babies at home with experienced mws or in hospital without epidurals. I'm on my phone so can't post much at the mo but I'm sure someone knowledgable will be on soon. I'd suggest you google Mary cronk hands off the breech.

thereisalightanditnevergoesout · 16/12/2010 17:04

I don't think many experienced MWs would be willing to take the risk of a breech at home. And I have had quite a few discussions about it recently.

thereisalightanditnevergoesout · 16/12/2010 17:13

Of course - there are those homebirths with undiagnosed breeches (that mine very nearly became) that have to be dealt with, but still...

Ultimately, if you are well-informed you are able to make your choice and decide how you want to deliver your baby and where. A healthy baby and a healthy mother is what's important.

satsumagirl · 16/12/2010 17:32

First thing to say is- don't panic! The pregnancy books talk about breech babies like it's some kind of aberration. Just because it's a less usual position for a baby does not mean it is dangerous.

My baby was breech up until week 36/ 37 ish and I'd recommend the following:

  1. Acupuncture and moxibustion (has success rate of 70%)
  1. Hypnotherapy (success rate of 81%)
  1. Going on all fours and rocking hips
  1. Massaging accupressure point on little toe and putting ginger paste on there
  1. Pulsatilla
  1. ECV

I have heard of some babies turning very late (.g. week 39/40).

AIMS has an excellent book on breech babies which includes lots of v good research. Some of the studies of breech babies include premature babies (many of whom are inevitably breech) which does skew the stats somewhat re risks.

I would say give the above tips a go and then see how you get on. But please don't worry.

thereisalightanditnevergoesout · 16/12/2010 17:44

satsumagirl I tried massaging the accupressure point on my little toe - only I couldn't quite reach it!! Grin.

And you're right - I read somewhere (maybe on here, even) that someone's baby turned right before delivery.

I think people are twitchy about it - because it is less common but not impossible and there are loads of things to try in the meantime.

neverlookback · 17/12/2010 09:59

just thought id tell you a sucess story, my friend accross the road has delivered 2 breech babies all by herself she was adamant she would not have a cs so they had to go with it, she had an epidural with 1st but im not sure on 2nd, but i think they proberly did make her have one to be safe incase she had to go into theatre, she had very normal births no assistance and just a few stitches.

so it can work just go with what you want to do an dont be forced into anything you dont wnant to do, most midwifes have no experience of vaginal breech births so are nervous about it but it is possible x

GlitteryBalls · 17/12/2010 10:26

I'm not dead set against having a CS per se if it's the safest option, I don't want to put me or baby at risk unnecessarily just for the sake of it. Guess I just want to make a properly informed choice. My mum delivered my bro breech with no epidural and forceps and episiotomy and noone even thought to offer CS/epidural back then. My mum has had no devastating effects either, she is perfectly continent etc! She says he has a bit of scarring and one or two mildly numbe patches but that's about it and I'm guessing that's sort of standard anyway. However it was her second and she had already had me vaginally before. This will be my first so does this make it more likely that they would strongly advise CS?

If I did want a vaginal birth would it be an option they would consider without too mcuh trouble or would I have to literally fight for it? I'm not going to do that I don't think because I'm not going to pretend I know better than an experienced obstetrician tbh because I don't! And also what are the benefits/reasoning behind fighting for a vaginal birth against medical advice? Is it just the obvious ie. recovery afterwards etc.? Also is it inevitable that having a CS would make it likely that any other DCs I have in future will have to be born by CS? I would like the experience of having a vaginal delivery, but I was apprehensive enough about it as it was when I thought everything would be fairly textbook and I don't know if I'd feel comfortable anticipating a birth that would possible have more complications/be longer/riskier to baby/more prone to injury etc. Guess I'd just liek to know the risks/pros/cons of both.

Also is the reasoning behind the epidural in vaginal delivery because it's more painful, to discourage you from pushing too hard, or so that they can perform EMCS if necessary?

I was under the impression from MW that my choices were CS or vaginally with epidural and that was it. And that they would likely encourage CS as it's my first. So without epidural is impossible? Don't get me wrong I'll probably be screaming for an epidural as soon as I go into labour but I just want to know all my options!

Also is vaginal injury/tearing more likely with breech birth?

Sorry about all the queations! I am a med student so I am a bit too curious to know the exact reasoning behind everything! And thanks for the tips - I'll try some of those and hopefully she'll have flipped over again by next week anyway! xxxx

OP posts:
neverlookback · 17/12/2010 12:03

i think they give the epidural so that its in place ready just in case they do need to take you to theatre, im not sure on the tearing, the baby is the same size whichever way it comes out!! if you get a really good experienced midwife they can really help slow the baby down coming out and turn it to prevent tearing etc, i delivered a 10lb3oz baby with only a tiny tear and i think its down to the brilliant (really old) midwife!! good luck, fingers crossed the baby will turn in time, everything will be fine whatever happens x

thereisalightanditnevergoesout · 17/12/2010 15:06

I think there are a lot of MWs with experience of delivering breech babies (my aunt who is very experienced has many) and I just had a MW appointment and the MW said it does happen at home sometimes - but they have been undiagnosed breech HBs.

Tangle · 18/12/2010 03:04

DD1 (DC1) was breech at 28 weeks and stayed that way till the day she was born (41+3). We planned a HB, and went out of our way to find IMs competent and confident in vaginal breech birth.

This article by Mary Cronk summarizes the differences between vaginal breech birth and vaginal breech delivery quite nicely. We also found "Breech Birth" by Benna Waites and "Breech Birth: What are my options" by Jane Evans to be very informative.

CS has become the norm for breech in Western countries since the publication of the Term Breech Trial by Hannah et al in 2000 (it was published in the Lancet - last time I looked you get get it there if you signed up, all free). They conducted a Randomised Control Trial if vaginal vs. CS for breech babies and found CS to be significantly safer, especially for the baby. However the study has since been widely discredited due to serious flaws in the conception, execution and analysis.

Unfortunately, by the time the critiques had been done, CS had become the norm (there has been speculation that consultants were keen to adopt the recommendations as they have a surgical background and CS is a surgical solution - whether that's true or not I don't know). Whatever the cause, there has been a corporate reluctance within the NHS to advise anything other than CS (although its always worth asking, preferably the SoM of Consultant MW as there are pockets of highly skilled MWs within the NHS).

We did a lot of reading and thinking and came to the conclusion that vaginal birth was not intrinsically more dangerous than CS for breech babies as long as you had a skilled MW in attendance. Since then (2007) a study has been done in Paris (which found, for carefully selected mothers, vaginal breech was as safe as CS) and the guidance in Canada has been changed to make vaginal breech birth more mainstream.

To try and answer some of your specific questions:
In terms of delivery, is a CS inevitable?
No, although it will almost certainly by what the NHS will recommend.

Why do they tend to do them? Is it because the labour more longer/painful or is it because you are more likely to get "messed up" down there and need episiotomies etc?
Because NICE guidelines recommend it (and possibly because it within the comfort zone of most consultants). A breech birth is no more likely to need episiotomies, etc, than a cephalic birth - its only when Drs start trying to interfere too much that you are likely to get "messed up".

Also, if they decide at 37 weeks that I am breech, will they wait for me to go into labour/go to my due date? Or will I be pretty much whisked in straightaway?
From the experience of friends, you'll most likely be scheduled for a CS at about 39 weeks, and advised to go straight in if you go into labour before hand.

If I did want a vaginal birth would it be an option they would consider without too mcuh trouble or would I have to literally fight for it?
From my experience and having read other stories, it very much depends on the outlook of your MW team and the personal view of your consultant.

I'm not going to do that I don't think because I'm not going to pretend I know better than an experienced obstetrician tbh because I don't!
Bizarely, I came out of the "so, your baby's breech" meeting with the registrar thinking that possibly I did know more (about this extremely narrow field) than they did, as all they did was to quote me the guidelines with no background information.

And also what are the benefits/reasoning behind fighting for a vaginal birth against medical advice? Is it just the obvious ie. recovery afterwards etc.? Also is it inevitable that having a CS would make it likely that any other DCs I have in future will have to be born by CS?
For us some of the key points here were:

  • lack of evidence that CS is safer
  • CS is major abdominal surgery
  • a scarred uterus is a pretty significant abnormality for any future pregnancies. It doesn't necessitate CS for all future babies but it does add to the risks of pregnancy (whether you'll be advised a VBAC or CS would depend a lot on your consultant although I think CS is always possible by request in these circumstances)
One way I heard it put was that delivering a breech baby by CS reduces risks to that baby but transfers the risk onto future babies.

I would like the experience of having a vaginal delivery, but I was apprehensive enough about it as it was when I thought everything would be fairly textbook and I don't know if I'd feel comfortable anticipating a birth that would possible have more complications/be longer/riskier to baby/more prone to injury etc.
From the experience of our IM, breech births tend to either be pretty straightforward (and quite progressive) or they stall and go nowhere. Also, whilst there are higher stats related to various things for breech babies, they seem to be related to position in the womb (ignoring ECVs) and have little to do with method of birth.

Guess I'd just liek to know the risks/pros/cons of both.
Very wise :o

Looking back, if I had to do it again my ideal would be to have experienced MWs in a hospital - so we could go for a very hands off breech birth but with backup there if there were any problems. But that can be quite hard to achieve without a big fight (if the PCT have skilled MWs, if they will be on shift etc) - we weren't up for the fight so it came down to CS or HB with IMs for us.

Ultimately, though, its an extremely personal decision. We found that the risks of CS vs vaginal birth weren't directly comparable - so it became a case of which set of risks do we feel more comfortable with at this point in time. Its not easy, though, and you have my sympathy. Good luck, and if there's anything I can help with please let me know :)

Tangle · 18/12/2010 03:10

Blush why do I always write essays when breech birth pops up?

Breech birth is a compulsory part of of MWs training so, in theory, all MWs have breech skills. IIRC about 50% of babies that present breech at term are undiagnosed - and at least some of those will wind up as vaginal breechs (although the way they're conducted can be highly variable).

My experience was that my 9lb12 1st baby who popped out feet first didn't hurt - I got through the whole shebang with a TENS machine and a pool (which only got used for transition). My IMs unproven thought was that a bum is squishier than a head, and so its a cushy way to stretch everything out (and that women who've had both head down and breech babies vaginally often say the breech hurts less). I did have a 2nd degree tear (that nicked a blood vessel and wouldn't stop bleeding for a while) that got me transferred to hospital, but it was stitched up on the ward and didn't cause me any problems afterwards.

and now I'm going to bed before I look like Confused all tomorrow...

thelittlestkiwi · 18/12/2010 03:14

I had an elective CS for breech for my DD (DD1). My consultant said that breech is recommended as they have no evidence your baby can 'get out'. I was slightly anxious as DH has a very big head (And it was HUGE when he was a baby as my DBIL told me. Thanks for that.)

My elective was a very good experience, DD fed in recovery and I am happy with the scar. I feel quite lucky about how it all went and it suited me. I'd never have demanded a CS without a reason but had never been someone who was wedded to the idea of vaginal birth.

jabberwocky · 18/12/2010 03:31

My water broke at term and I went on to labor for 32 hours with an undiagnosed breech baby. My c-section was such a relief! I went on to have an elective with ds2 and it was quite nice.

thelittlestkiwi · 18/12/2010 04:42

I should have said, they have no evidence first babies can 'get out'. IYSWIM.

SleepWhenImDead · 18/12/2010 07:40

I think the most important thing is what the professionals feel they can help you with. If they are unconfident about a breech vaginal birth then they are probably inexperienced and just don't want to do it. If you're sure that you want a vaginal birth then yes, you probably will need to fight for it.

My experience was having a v late diagnosed breech presentation with DS1 at 39+3 so I had a hasty ECV which was v v painful but didn't work as I was a first time mum and it was so late there wasn't enough room. A few hours later my waters broke so had to have an "emergency" c section even tho one was booked. You have to remember that a breech baby is not poorly, there's nothing really scary, so an elective c section is done a lot more slowly than an emergency. Mine was a bit scary as I was dilating very fast and though I would get to the pushing stage before I was in theatre. Electives can be a nice experience. And it doesn't mean you'll have another CS- DS2 was successfully VBAC'd! But your baby is more likely to turn than to stay breech so good luck!

GoodChristianaRejoice · 18/12/2010 07:51

Dd2 was breech

My consultant said at the time of my c section that she believed some babies don't turn for a reason

Dd2's reason was that she had the cord round her neck twice. It was so tight it looked like a choker necklace. I hate to think what would have happened if I had insisted on a vaginal delivery.

My c section was a special intimate and fun experience. I think they are recommended for a reason

thelittlestkiwi · 18/12/2010 08:20

Should have mentioned- it turned out my DD had one foot in my cervix and the other leg extended in the other direction. Consultant said she would never have come out normally. I'm very glad I was saved a long labour and emergency section. And even more glad I live in modern times where C sections are possible.

thereisalightanditnevergoesout · 18/12/2010 11:02

'Looking back, if I had to do it again my ideal would be to have experienced MWs in a hospital - so we could go for a very hands off breech birth but with backup there if there were any problems. But that can be quite hard to achieve without a big fight (if the PCT have skilled MWs, if they will be on shift etc) - we weren't up for the fight so it came down to CS or HB with IMs for us.'

I think that's it - if you know you're having a breech and your midwives know too - like you say they are skilled (OK some will have more experience than others) and should have no problems delivering but, if you're in hospital, you'll have back up from a medical team should it be necessary. It's reassuring.

When I had my ECV, the Obstetrician said that the ECV may not work, as CS may be necessary, but that in some cases, it may be safer to deliver a breech baby vaginally than via CS. I wasn't sure I'd ever hear an Obstetrician say something like that.

In my experience so far, I tend to feel that MWs are more than happy to let women decide for themselves, and not rush or push you into having an intervention you don't need (where sometimes a doctor will immediately want to intervene - as has been mentioned above). But I think you're right, it does depend on the PCT and on the Supervisor of Midwives. This is why, when I was advised that if my baby was breech at delivery, I would be better having the baby in hospital, I accepted this. (I have been lucky enough to have the same MW at all 3 of my births and plan to have the same one at my 4th.).

GlitteryBalls · 18/12/2010 14:18

Thanks so much for your brilliant responses everyone! Will just have to wait and see how it all goes with scan/possible ECV! x

OP posts:
MacMomo · 19/12/2010 09:29

Reading this thread with interest: am 37+ and breech with my first. Have also been diagnosed with oligohydramnios (low amniotic fluid) and afraid she won't be able to be turned by ECV as there's no cushioning. I really can't decide between going for the elective CS or trying a vaginal to see how it progresses. I barely know my MF team, having not seen any one them more than once (and there's a slim chance my nominal lead MF will actually be on duty during my labour).

kiwijesta · 19/12/2010 11:00

macmomo also reading with interest!

DH and I got taught at ante-natal classes this acronym - BRAINS which we are doing at the moment to help us decide what to do re ECV, ECS or VB
B - benifits - what are they?
R - risks - what are they?
A - alternatives - are there any? if so what?
I - instincts - gut feelings
N - nothing - just wait
S - smile - obv

So far we've found this helpful, and have settled on N at 36 weeks with breech baby and low amniotic fluid.

GlitteryBalls · 19/12/2010 14:47

I too have not seen MW more than once! I wasn't really given much chance to speak at length at last apt, but I spose they didn't see much point in discussing it in detail til term and it had been confirmed def breech etc. I am hoping that if it is breech and ECV is unsuccessful then I will get a chance to have a reasonable chat with an experienced MW and/or obs to actually find out what the real evidence/reasoning behind these policies are. I don't want to put me or baby at unnecessary risk, but I do want to make a properly informed choice so I hope everything will be explained to me properly. As I mentioned I am a medical student and whilst I haven't learnt a lot specifically about obstetrics yet I will understand a lot of the "big words", I don't want to feel patronised and just blindly go along with what I'm told without a proper explanation.

OP posts:
MacMomo · 20/12/2010 09:02

glitteryballs as a med student, you might not be patronised as much as mere mortals! For some reason the MW at my booking in appointment noted I was a medical professional on my notes (I am not), and until I corrected them, I was treated like an intelligent adult. At my OB appointment 8 weeks ago, I was spoken to like a complete moron by the doctor, who went on to misread my notes and get a few things quite wrong. Get used to fighting insisting on the "big words", and have a few credible medical articles to quote up your sleeve. Do let us know how you get on.

kiwi I have my 37 week scan tomorrow. Have been drinking gallons of water: the MW said it wouldn't make any difference, but a friend showed me new research to indicate that it can (but need to make sure you keep your mineral levels up too). Can feel the baby thrashing around constantly, feels like she's trying.

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