TimesOnline has just published an article on the NEW swine flu vaccine - and recommends that pregnant women ask for this in addition to last year's if they had it.

[JosephineClaire]

Has anyone else heard this?

I had a swine flu vaccine at about 10 weeks - I'm now wondering if I need another at 34 weeks...

Nice to have a twirl in a white coat but it doesn't do much for me. There are plenty of white coats and even the odd Nobel science prize winner you might take issue with. And then Wakefield was elected a Fellow of the Royal College two years after his paper. So really, it doesn't refute any facts to flash your microscope.

No one knows what the effects of thiomersal are on the developing foetus. No one knows.

Miniature -- there are doubts about the preservative that replaced mercury too. I'll have a hunt around and get some info later.

Thanks, Appletrees. They must be using something instead of mercury.

Appletrees,

There is a truism in the philosophy of science that a thesis can never be proven, only disproven. For instance, Newton's laws are pretty good but do not work at relativistic speeds or on tiny particles.

So, yes, no one knows what effect thiomersal has on the foetus but there is a lot of good science saying "not very much" based on animal expriments and experience of the drug where it is already used. The ultimate experimental evidence in medicine is the double blind controlled trial and, of course, no one is going to do that on pregnant women. However, it does not mean that there is NO evidence that it is harmless, merely that the evidence is not of the highest quality.

Then disprove the thesis that mercury in vaccinations has a role in brain damage. Disprove the thesis that MMR has a role in triggering some cases of autism. If you can disprove these theses, why has it not been done?

"The ultimate experimental evidence in medicine is the double blind controlled trial and, of course, no one is going to do that on pregnant women".

This means that this entire vaccination programme is an experiment on pregnant women. Pregnant women should know this.

They should also know that any adverse reaction will in all probability be denied, ascribed to coincidence, not recorded, ignored.

Pofakked - I was in no way suggesting pregnant woman should have their fillings removed (in fact if you watch the video you would see just what a bad idea that is)

My point is that dental amalgam has been used for 150 years that's 150 years of fetus being exposed to mercury not to even to think about the amount of mercury women have been exposed to in industral settings in the past.

Yet appletrees seems to think that autism was only "discovered" in the 40's due to thiomersal in the 30's.

I just find it hypocritical to have such a prejudice against mercury in vaccines when you will happily shove mercury into the mouths if your children for it to slowely leak into their bodies for the rest of their lives.

Or the fact that you would not get rid of the mercury in your body before TTC.

Just to re establish I don't have a problem with the vaccine or dental amalgam.

When do you think autism was "discovered" Dylthan? When do you think mercury was added to vaccines? What are your reasons for believing there is no connection? Why do you think a connection has been disproven and there is no possibility of a connection?

Many "anti-conspiracy theorists" like to invoke Occam's razor to attempt to disabuse people of their "misconceptions" -- I'd like to invoke it myself with regard to MMR.

Once it's clear that the MMR story is not as straightforward as we are led to believe, the house of cards starts to crumble. These attempts to use epidemiological studies to "disprove" the link, they're just empty and useless.

Appletrees,

What is your issue with epidemiological studies?

MMR is widely used and, even if you do think that there is a miniscule danger, it has to be weighed against the danger of blindness and brain damage from measles.

All I'm saying is that if mercury is the problem then would it not of been "discovered" when mercury was in mothers systems in higher doses?

I think the fact that autism cases have increased since thiomersal was removed means that a lot more research needs to be done on the causes of autism.

I just think it's dangerous to say well that's us solved the problem of how autism is caused. When children are still being diagnosed I think money would be better spent on trying to find and solve the problem rather than doing study after study to alleviate peoples fears. Especially when it dosen't matter how many case studies disprove the link there still be people who choose to beleive it.

Don't you know?

Epidemiological studies do nothing to prove or disprove effects in a particular group or sub-group. In fact there's been a court ruling in the US along these lines.

Quite apart from that they are easy to structure and manipulate to get the response "needed".

For example, the Japan study: MMR withdrawn, no change in autism cases. Details: MMR replaced by single vaccines given close together, sometimes a week apart, a month apart, sometimes the same day. Fact: the effects of vaccines take up to a month to emerge. Rashes three weeks later and so on. Fact: Wakefield posited that might be the effects of multiple assaults on the immune system close together that might be a problem. Japan study therefore useless, certainly as a disproof of the MMR / autism theory.

Example: Danish study: three million children, no connection with autism. Fact: a retrospective rather than prospective study, parents not asked to come forward with events, relied on medical records. Fact: the outcomes of only a fraction, hundreds, if that, rather than three million were studied and uses in the statistics. Funded by Merck. Useless as a disproof of MMR-autism.

Example: study of children between approx 1990 and 1999 showing no difference in autism between vaccinated and unvaccinated children. Fact: vaccination around 18 months, autism diagnosis in the study on average just under five years. When the study ended a tranche of children, three and a half years worth, had been vaccinated and were counted as "undiagnosed". When in fact those autism diagnoses hadn't had a chance to be made. Highly misleading. Useless as a disproof of MMR-autism.

These are three of the epidemiological studies that are supposed to reassure us.

Your last sentence is dreadful scaremongering.

Hmm.

I think the issue ehre is that it's one size fits all.

I ahd MMR and probably would have ahd flu jabs with my older chidlren, from what IO knew of our genetics at the time it was absolutely the right thing to do.

I now know that we have autism in the family and that one of my chidlren regressed after the MMR. I don;t know it was linked, I don't know it wasn't.

So knowing what I do the MMR adn flu jab isn't for us (we had swine flu last eyar anyway and I am not pg thankfully).

If I thought we were in the vast majority of famillies with no genetic reason to activelys earch for environmental triggers for ASD then i;d probably ahve it.

These threads aren't ever going to work becuase people are too avried and there are always pro's and cons, and even if you disagree with me then you'd have to be ahrd not to understand.

WRt to the risk of blindness, yes i;d take that voer autism tbh. I'd rather skip both (and in fact ds4 has had separate measles jab) but blind people have lives and chances and dont; face care homes like my ds3.

So,

each to their own circs eh? get out the informatiomn then trust people to decide for themselves.

"I think the issue here is that it's one size fits all."

How right you are. Simple and straight to the point.

I'm sorry about your ds Sancti but I find your comment that all autistic people don't have lives to be highly offensive.

It certainly isn't the case for my dh cousin or the autistic children that my mum works with.

I think Sancti knows exactly how much of a life and a chance her own child is having and is going to have.

hugs to you sancti

Yes HER child not every autistic child. People with autism can have familys, jobs and a social life I'm not saying that is the case for her ds she would know best about him.

It's just the fact she made out like every autistic child will have no life.

Why are you going off on this sideline and attacking sancti? She has many reasons to be angry and is being measured and thoughtful. You have none. You should step back. Having a mum who works with autistic children doesn't exactly make you an expert. I think we should move away from this: it's unkind and disrespectful.

You haven't answered any points satisfactorily and you are reduced to this.

I am actually pretty offended by you. You implied earlier that it was better for a child to die than be autistic and demanded and answer to what I would prefer. You embarrass yourself.

I'm not attacking sancti my family also has a autistic child on my Dh side.

I think my experiances and opinions are just as valid as are my familys.

I think you don't want me to talk about this because your argument hinges on the fact that autism is the worst thing that can ever happen to a child which simply isn't the case.

I saw the dentist on the day I found out I was pregnant I told him I was pregnant he said I needed fillings and gave me the silver ones he didn't say anything about it being unsafe or not reccomended, now I'm really worried about the baby and don't know why the dentist did this if they are supposed to be harmful.

I repeat: quite the opposite: you implied that it was better for a child to die and I said no, not at all. I am not having an argument which hinges on any such thing.

I don't want to talk to you because of the question you asked earlier and now this.

I in no way said it was better to die than be autistic. That is the exact opposite to what I said!

I was asking you because the flu vaccine could stop a child from dying yet you seem to feel that is not important as long as you don't have an autistic child.

What I said is that I could understand someone if that is what they truely felt but that is in no way what I would do hence why I was vaccinated while pregnat and also had my ds age 3 vaccinated.

'I'm sorry about your ds Sancti but I find your comment that all autistic people don't have lives to be highly offensive.

I actually ahve two kids with ASD, pretty sure have it myself at the light end and am restarting my MA in ASD today!

I know the variations P

I understand sancti and sorry you got pulled into this. In that way.

Enough already.

Have emailed the DOH asking if the seasonal flu jab to be administered to pregnant women contains thimerosal. Don't hold your breath.

I'm just a bit (maybe more than a bit) protective of my cousin.