Contemplating a (small) glass of wine once a week...

[SaraL77]

anyone else feel the urge? or feel guilty?? But I still feel guilty thinking about it- it's so annoying!

Japhrimel, does that mean that the advice on the NHS website isn't in line with government guidelines - surely the two should be in line with each other?

I find this ridiculously irritating: on the one hand, the NHS is telling me one thing, on the other hand, a different story.

Government advice is not to drink I think.
NHS say it is fine to have 1 or 2 units once or twice a week.

I LOVE my wine and thought I would find not drinking a complete nightmare but it has been OK actually (am now 29 and a bit weeks). Had bad MS in 1st trimester so wine was very unappealing and I didn't have any at all. I think I had a shandy and a small glass of champagne during 1st trimester in total.

Since then I have had a glass or possibly two of wine or something sparkling once or twice a week - but not every week. I haven't had anything for nearly two weeks now but might have a drink at the weekend. I see nothing wrong with having a small drink or two a week if you want. Strange thing is that I don't actually want that much most of the time!

I must say that I am looking forward to drinking again and not worrying. It would be lovely to have several glasses of red wine in one night! Roll on November.

I had two small glasses twice a week with both mine. Not during first 12 weeks as didn't feel like it.

There is no disparity on guidance.
Just on what people remember about it...

This was discussed a little while ago but the gist is:

There is no evidence you increase the risk of miscarriage, premature birth, still birth and other physical issues at the 1-2 units a week (which used to be considered a safe amount).

There is some evidence that any amount of alcohol increases the risk of learning and behavioural disorders.

So, as no-one is suggesting that alcohol has a positive effect on the foetus, to be as safe as possible any amount of alcohol should be avoided.

However, for an individual, it is not unreasonable or irrational to consume small amounts of alcohol.

Link to NHS/Department of Health
Link to RCOG
Link to previous thread

I think the advice is no alcohol and there is no actual "safe amount" anymore just suggestions to minimise risk as they just don't know what levels of alcohol can cause FAS.

Some women seem to have children with FAS after drinking minimal amounts whilst raving alcoholics avoid it. That's why they don't have an official "safe" amount anymore.

They say if you must drink, drink as little as possible to minimise risk but best of all don't drink at all.

The reason they advise that is because they are trying to make it all as safe as possible and there is not an x amount they can deem safe, kind of wise in this what is becoming sue happy nation.

Can you imagine if someone was told it was safe to drink x amount a week by the NHS and then they had a child with FAS.

I had two glasses of wine a week post first trimester with both mine. Both were good healthy babies and have done very well academically. They are nearly twelve and fourteen now.

I was too sick to ever drink whilst pregnant excepting one time. I was pregnant with DD1 and about three weeks before she was born I took to craving a pina colada like no one's business! Oooo. I hung on about two weeks, then I went and made myself one. Damn, it tasted really good!

But back then the guidelines were different. You could have up to 2 units/week.

Why not water the wine down to a spritzer?

Before I ever knew I was pregnant with her, though, before I was late with my period, DH and I have a voddy binge. I puked all over the bed, something I never did before.

For years, I blamed that for her dyspraxia, but numerous paeds have pointed out that it couldn't have caused it, as I was not even late with my period, there was no placenta. More than likely, it's because her paternal grandfather, father and paternal uncle all have it.

But man, I was sick as a dog for days. That was my first inkling, that I might be pregnant.

I boaked through all my pregnancies, have dire acid reflux later on, too. Didn't crave much at all but sucking on ice cubes.

I had a small glass of red wine most of the evenings with my dinner during my two pregnancies. Fine by doctors and midwives.

There's plenty of evidence that drinking even up to 8-10 units a week will not cause any harm to the foetus.

The whole panic is ridicolous imho. Can anyone link to a case where a woman drank v.moderately and had a baby with FAS? Not where the kid has an ADHD and it's automatically linked. Maybe it was the pesticides in food, maybe household chemicals, maybe just genetics. I would like to see some evidence, please. Not, 'oh, we don't know, but maybe, perhaps, there is a one-in-a million chance that this glass of wine will somehow harm the foetus'.

The problem is winny, is they can't possibly say for definate any amount of alcohol is safe, so they say that and tell you not to, kind of wise really considering how sue happy were are against health professionals.

It's rediculous to you maybe not to those who have had miscarriages or whatever, people will always blame themselves, they will find any reason.

Women can choose to be sensible and use their common sense which is a good thing, the NHS just can't say for definate any amount is safe, I don't see why you have an issue with that tbh. Since when has ADHD been automatically linked to alcohol intake in pregnancy, not to my knowledge it hasn't.

I've had a beer or two a week since end of first trimester too. In fact am drinking a small glass now (half a small can of Heineken- DH got the other half). Whilst I am sure that drinking to excess in pregnancy would be harmful, I would be very surprised if an otherwise normal and healthy pregnancy and baby could be affected by such a small amount.
As someone who used to drink a fair bit before I got pregnant and the night before I found out I was pregnant had been out on the wine (would've been five weeks gone but obviously didn't realise), the relatively tiny amount I drink now genuinely doesn't worry me. Suppose it's different if you have always drunk hardly any booze though...

emmylou-I gave ADHD just as an example of blaming any learning difficulties, behavioural problems etc on alcohol.

I haven't got an issue with it, everyone can decide for themselves- but when I read about women who feel incredibly guilty for having had 3 drinks throughout their pregnancy or are agonizing whether they can have one glass of champagne at the party- well, yes, this is a bit ridiculous, I think, in a sense of women again being told what to do and not to do- without a proof, and it's just adding to their stress and filling guilty, that's all.

I understand the reasons behind government's guidelines, but in a face of numerous studies where a lot of subjects were observed in pg and after and where no adverse effects of a moderate drinking have been reported- well, I'm yet to see a study that can say that it is harmful.

I see what your saying, but I suppose it's an easy get out of everything clause for the NHS.

It's like everything in pregnancy though isn't it it comes down to the discretion and common sense of the mother who often knows best tbh.

Zoe Williams wrote an interesting article in the Guardian about drinking (and eating soft cheese!) in pregnancy:

www.guardian.co.uk/society/2007/may/29/health.medicineandhealth

It seems like health professionals know that A) excessive drinking can cause harm and B) not drinking does no harm. There doesn't seem to be much research in the middle, about how much is harmful so they're erring on the side of caution.

I'm in the first trimester of my first pregnancy. I am very comfortable having the occasional drink - I had a glass of wine at a social work function this evening. And now that I think about it, I had a glass of wine last night too. I'm honestly not worried.

But it is totally cool for each woman to decide for herself. The only thing I object to is women being told the "can not" or "have to" do certain things.

'I see what your saying, but I suppose it's an easy get out of everything clause for the NHS.'

Agree, it just annoys me- one the one hand you may say it's right if it even saves a couple of kids from beng born with FAS, on the other hand you have thousands of otherwise sensible women loosing any faith in their ability to make these choices for themselves.

Somehow you don't hear the government talking about adverse effects on the developing foetus of pesticides on food from the supermarket, even though a lot of them have been proved to be carcinogens.

on the one hand

and

have been proven

had too much wine

Looks like I'm with the majority. I didn't have any first 13 weeks and since then have been having 1 or two glasses of wine a week (mainly if we go out for a nice dinner or if someone has opened champagne).

I only drink if I really really fancy it, and then I actually find that about half a glass is plenty and I don't want any more. I think our bodies are very clever at knowing what is ok and what is not and feel quite confident to listen to my instincts and ignore patronising government advice.

And don't start me on those pg woman and red circle labels on bottles of alcohol- like we all have an IQ of 30, for one, and two- it just strikes me as such an objectification of a woman as a womb on legs. Grrr.

Oh those pics are a bit annoying it's like being a child and having the 0-3 label on as if mummy needs pics to tell you you can't have it.

@winnybella

There is quite a bit of evidence that small amounts of alcohol is associated with increased risk.

From the other thread:

So if 1-3 units a week leads to:

9% increased risk of placenta conditions

24% increased risk of childhood leukaemia

10% increased risk of cognitive and socioemotional development at age 3

And I, for one, would be very interested to see the evidence regarding food born pesticides and pregnancy.
Care to help me out?

NHS advice is don't drink at all (as per Government guidelines), but that if you are going to drink, stick to 1-2 units a week. They just recognise that people will have the odd drink, so it's best that they know that you should stick to 1-2 units a week.

DBennett - single studies aren't a good guide, especially when looking at abstracts.

In that first study, for example, there is no information given in the abstract about whether the drinkers were age & background matched with non-drinkers before comparing - important given that they do note that, compared with nondrinkers, drinkers were more likely to be smokers, 35 years of age or older, black, and multiparous (smoking and age being 2 definite risk factors and ethnicity (& possibly # of children) possibly being linked to lower income familes).

Also, in that first study, they found that there was a definite increase in risk with 5+ drinks a week. The small increase in risk with 1-2 drinks a week may not have been significant if a larger sample was used, or if better matching of cases was used.

The second abstract you linked to was a very small study and no information is given in the abstract about any other factors considered, e.g. whether the women who said yes to some alcohol during pregnancy were also more likely to be smokers.

Do you have any links to better quality studies or reviews on this subject?

What japhrimel said.

And there have been a lot of studies done which show that pesticide exposure during pregnancy causes problems like small birth weight, neurological disorders and other conditions.

Just googling will take you these studies- I am ashamed to say I don't know how to do links and I have to go out with DD now, but will be happy to give you some examples later on.

I agree that using the abstract only is not the best way to look at research.
Fortunately I'm not restricted to that.
But paywalls are shit and if you don't want to consider papers that are hidden behind it I thoroughly understand.

And epidemiology of this sort is both hard to do and hard to interpret.

But these studies do take all the step feasible to avoid confounders.

The last one is a systemic review of all available data.
That's a pretty high level of evidence.
When it was published, The Netherlands changed their guidance from 1-2 units to zero during pregnancy.

And my point remains, given this level of evidence, government guidelines of zero consumption is a sensible way of managing population risk and uncertainty.

But that does not alter that an individual has free choice on the matter and, as I said before, can reasonably and rationally decide to consume small amounts.

Once the nausea subsides I do have the odd glass of wine or bottle of beer.

With DS1 I drank quite heavily during the first trimester as I simply didn't know I was pregnant and it coincided with DD dropping her regular day time milk feeds so I was able to go out far more and boy did I enjoy myself after a year+ off!

I was really quite worried when I discovered I was pregnant but the Drs were fairly dismissive and maintained that in the vast majority of cases you needed to be seriously binge drinking every day to do any harm. DS1 is now a very healthy and very bright 4.6 year old. Anecdotal of course but there it is.

Does anyone know if there had been a significant reduction in FAS over the past 40 years since alcohol in pregnancy became an issue?

@nancydrewrockek

(and yes she did BTW)

I don't think there is good enough data to really answer that.

Plus the classification of FAS now goes into FASD and it's likely that recorded cases have risen regardless of underlying rates.

Although there is good evidence that alcohol consumption during pregnancy hasn't changed in the last 15yrs (as measured by maternal questionnaire).