No progress in 8 months

[Wrongsideofpennines]

My just turned 3 year old has made no progress in potty training in 8 months. He came out of nappies in September and I am utterly fed up of cleaning up him, his clothes, his carseat, the floor, the sofa. He still has multiple accidents both bladder and bowels. At home, and in childcare.

He knows he needs to wee and poo in the toilet. We have a potty and a folding seat and he can use either of these himself. He can dress and undress his lower half. He can communicate in full sentences.

About 50% of the time he will go when we tell him to. The other 50% he will argue it and sometimes I try to trust him and other times I make him go. When we take him to the toilet he usually wees and or poos. But his pants are invariably also damp.

I have tried rewards but he never tells us he needs to go, and rarely when he is wet. So instead we tried rewarding for a day of no accidents and then he just wets/poos after he had the reward. We tried no clothes on and he pooed on the floor. We tried no underwear and the same happened. We tried no trousers and the same happened.

He is not constipated and does not have a UTI. He has an older sibling who has encouraged him. Occasionally we have a couple of days with only minor accidents like a dribble in his pants but then the next day we are back to full accidents all day. Today he has done 2 poos and 4 wees in his underwear.

We make him clean up himself and he doesn't care. He sees it as a game and just messes around instead of doing it. He doesn't feel like he is missing out because he is enjoying singing himself a song or putting his pants on his head instead.

There doesn't seem to be any progress at all and it seems stupid after 8 months of no nappies to put him back into them but we used washable nappies and I do more washing now than I did with the bloody nappies. I honestly don't know what to do next. I am really struggling to see a way forward. I dread days out or going away because I don't want to have to pack 7 pairs of pants and trousers for a day out but that is literally the reality. I'm contemplating dehydrating him in a heatwave just so I can take my older child out somewhere in half term but I cannot cope with the soiling.

I will take any suggestions because I really am so desperately unhappy about it all.

Put him in a pull up to go out. It sounds like you have tried really hard but he’s just not getting it/not bothered about being wet/soiled. You can’t spend your life in the house.
There is no one approach fits all with potty training, pull ups are usually not advised but sometimes they’re a godsend.
You can still do no pull up at home or do potty time at set times during the day.
Eventually he will decide he doesn’t want to be a baby still in nappies, he just hasn’t developed that awareness yet.
Maybe taking the stress and pressure off everyone for a while will do the trick and he’ll decide for himself that he doesn’t want to wear nappies anymore and then he will be out of them
quickly.

Do you suspect he is ND?

I would normally advise to NEVER go back to nappies, but I've never known a child (without additional needs) to struggle to this extent. I would be tempted to put him in pull-ups for a few months and then try again.

Do you have any time pressure e.g starting school etc?

I would put him in pull ups too. I toilet trained my first child in pull ups aged 3 . We were getting too many poo accidents and i was getting stressed out from washing pants . I wish i waited longer to start toilet training. With my second child i waited until he was 3,5 to toilet train and he got it in 3 days. It sounds to me your little one is just not ready yet and that’s ok.

He starts preschool in September and must be potty trained to attend. So if I put him in pull ups now then that only gives me 3 months to then get him out of them.

He is in a pull up at night and he still does a poo in it in the morning most mornings. I don't know if it will make a difference or if he will then just save it up for his pull up?

He tells me he's not a baby. He consciously made the decision to stop breastfeeding a couple of months ago and told me he wanted to stop because he's not a baby. And then just did it and never went back.

I don't think he has ASD but I wonder about inattentive ADHD simply because he is terrible at doing what we ask him to do. But he is also a 3 year old boy. And what 3 year old wants to do what he's told? He has met all other milestones normally.

He did have a minor kidney reflux issue as a baby but has had no infections since he was a baby. His consultant said he has grown out of it and discharged him. She didn't think it would affect potty training.

You started waaaay too early. You should have given up by Christmas. He’s a boy and they are often older! It’s no disgrace.

My GP advised dd went back into nappies. No idea why others think it’s wrong. If they don’t care, they don’t care. It’s absolutely not linked to intelligence. DD got a place at Oxford. It’s linked to them developing competences at differing rates. My DD do trained in a few days in August and started nursery in Sept. Just put it on the back burner. Change him and don’t talk about it. No bribes, no discussion and no making yourselves upset! Start again in early August or earlier if he seems interested. He will get there but not on a false timetable.

It took a few tries with my ds. He just did not get it. We only did a few days but was so stressful worrying about the carpet and sofa!! . He was about 3.5 when it clicked. Poos took a while longer. That was pretty stressful too. I would say stop and try again a in 3 months.

Are you absolutely sure this isn't impaction with overflow? 4 poos in pants in a day is a lot. Wee accidents are also a sign. What checks have you done?
Have you contacted ERIC?
Google the poo nurses and watch the video. It talks a lot about constipation but towards the end it has some really good advice about soiling.

https://www.thenappylady.co.uk/reusable-potty-training-pants.html

I use the Bamboolik ones and the kangaroo ones for night but all look good

no nappies at home
when u wanna go out put him in training plants no fleece liner so he feels wet (I got mine off vinted for £3 for 2 so doesn’t have to break the bank but honestly I would get a few for piece of mind

is he trained at night as mine went from being really intermittent to trained in just a few days (after three months. Of day training ) when we did night being in nappies at all was confusing the matter

have you read books about it the Eric website has one called keeping the bed dry and there is a pirate Polly one which is really good

social stories

is there something he would really like to do which u can say u can only do c when you have been successfully on the potty when u know he needs to go so he gets a success with help. Mine was coming with me up a ladder and you have never seen a child who previously pretended to be inept get to a potty and do a wee!!

coukd u be outside for a weekend and not worry about it going on the floor so you can figure out his tell and help him get their on time

also if he really needs to poo and u can’t be outside how about in the bath playing with water in a baby bath ( so he is not In the water but he is naked and then you can get him on the toilet

tell him how important it is to you see if u can social pressure him into it( not too over the top just saying how much it would reduce your work load because it will.

do not let him have fun when he has an accident

good luck

Google the NHS resource “Poo goes to Pooland” - they do both a video and written info. It is designed to encourage children to poo on the toilet.

I would however suggest that you tried potty training way before he was ready. As others have suggested try pull ups for outings to take the stress out of the day.

Also, have a look at the ERIC website and you can also call them for advice.

Is it a private nursery as I thought state ones cannot refuse children who are not fully toilet trained?

Please dont make him clean up after himself or dehydrate him! That’s mean punsihment. He needs help and support as PP have suggested

Well I’m assuming you’re joking about dehydrating him in an heatwave because that would be cruel and abusive! And I’m not sure why you think asking a 3 year old to clean up shit and piss himself is the way to go either. Mine had just turned 3 and one day, it just clicked and he didn’t have an accident again either in the day or night but there was absolutely no pressure on him at all at that stage.

I do understand your frustration but he is still only a just turned 3 year old and there is no definitive timescale for it.

“He is in a pull up at night and he still does a poo in it in the morning most mornings.”

Well, what time does he wake up? If you know this is what happens, you need to be in there as soon as he wakes up, taking him straight to the loo/potty. Man is an animal of habit - if you notice what time of day things happen, can’t you whisk him off to the loo at the appropriate time? And don’t make him clean up after himself, or deprive him of water. Apart from the fact that it’s terribly bad for the kidneys to be dehydrated, if your wee is really strong, you are more likely to think you need the loo when you don’t (and so have an accident). Stick to water rather than juice. Also, you will give your DC hangups for life if you make the loo thing into a big deal, and making him clear up is just being unkind.

Thank you for all the suggestions. Obviously I'm not going to dehydrate him. It will just mean my other child will miss out on days out because I can't cope with excessive changes.

I ask him to help clean up himself, not the floor etc. So I ask him to take his wet pants off, wipe himself, put them in the machine and dress himself. I've read this suggestion multiple times to make it an effort for them so they recognise going to the toilet is quicker and they miss out on less fun. Usually what happens is he messes around for so long that I get fed up and dress him anyway.

Perhaps I did start too early, but he was interested in copying his sibling, sitting on the potty and getting some success of his own volition, telling us sometimes when he had done a poo in his nappy. The ERIC website specifically says not to wait for signs of readiness so we taught him the skills and then started. The ERIC website doesn't mention anything about children that don't make progress in such a long time, only children who regress.

But if I did start too early, then surely he would have still made progress by now either way? I don't understand how putting him back in nappies for 6 weeks would suddently make it click that that's not where he is supposed to wee.

He is not constipated. He does 2 type 4 poos a day. When these are on the toilet they are long and smooth. When in his pants I can plop them off into the toilet. There is no diarrhoea and no overflow. No abdominal pain.

I want to make it clear that we always have success on the toilet. Every time he sits on there he does a wee and/or a poo. He does push back on sitting sometimes because he doesn't want to stop what he is doing but there is never any withholding. But sometimes I can toilet him every 90 minutes and be ok. And then sometimes he will have 3 wees in his pants in that time.

I think I will have to contact ERIC or the health visitor about it. I do think its just because he doesn't really care. He knows I am disappointed with it but I don't want to pile pressure on him to make me happy because that is likely to cause more issues.

Please please don’t dehydrate him especially if he has previously had kidney issues. My DS had a kidney issue from birth, relatively mild and we were pushed quite hard to toilet train early because of it. Having had a nightmare with my first I ignored them, waited till he was more than ready at just over 3.5 and he did it in a day. I was shocked it was so quick but I just was ok with him being in nappies longer and waiting. We use a different pull up for bedtime so he knew the nappies were gone forever. Personally? I’d take it back a stage and wait a bit but appreciate the pressure from preschool. He’s shown you with the feeding when he’s ready he’ll do it and this all sounds so stressful for everyone, I’d park it for now.

Sounds like a really hard time OP.
I read this bit:
'About 50% of the time he will go when we tell him to. The other 50% he will argue it and sometimes I try to trust him and other times I make him go. When we take him to the toilet he usually wees and or poos. But his pants are invariably also damp.'
And just wanted to say that both of my children would never go if we asked them. If there was any suggestion at all that I WANTED them to do it, absolutely no chance it would happen. With mine (I learned the hard way with DD and had an awful few months) I just backed WAY off. No asking, no bribing, no rewards. It was making it all too much of a 'thing'.
So instead my approach was 'You know where the toilet/potty is, that's where wee and poo goes. Ask for help if you need me'. And I would leave it there. After an accident I would say with NO emotion whatsoever: 'You weed on the floor. Wee goes in the potty.' Then clean it up while basically ignoring her so there's absolutely no extra attention being received.
Low and behold, after one day of it (the self control I needed to stay unbothered was so hard), she started using the potty on the second day. Again, no massive praise, just a calm 'good job' and move on.
The idea is that toileting is a skill to be learned and is just a rather uninteresting part of every day life. They learn loads of skills this way that we don't make a huge deal out of.
Set the expectation and they might surprise you, was what I took away from it (in my situation, not saying it will work for you).

Sometimes 5am and sometimes 6am. Sometimes he poos straight away and sometimes it waits until I'm in the shower and cannot put him on the toilet immediately. I try extremely hard to catch it but sometimes his sibling beats him to the toilet and then its too late. Doesn't help with the 2nd one which could be any time between 10am and 7pm. We catch plenty of these by chance.

Obviously I am not going to dehydrate him. I am not an abusive monster. I was just illustrating how fed up I am with it. He drinks only water and milk. Never juice because we thought it might be contributing to it on the 1 day a week he had it. So we cut that completely and it made no difference.

I don't think it is unreasonable to ask a 3 year old to remove his own pants and put on clean ones when he has been physically capable of doing it for a year. He dresses himself at bedtime. He always wants to wipe himself so I let him for wees. I also thought it would give him an element of control in selecting his own clothes afterwards in the hope he didn't want to dirty then. His 2 year HV check asked if he can put a shirt or jacket on himself so I figured being able to do this was a good thing.

You are making this stressful for both of you and you are shaming him. Forget the whole thing and put pull ups on him. Revisit in the summer. He needs to grow and mature a bit in my view and not have this as a thing. Once he’s ready it will just happen. Due to family history of bed wetting to age 9-12yrs, we waited until way over 3 and it was easy to get daytime done. Nighttime took a few
more years but didn’t resort to alarms or anything and it happened naturally

Who ever decided it was a good thing to make dc help with cleaning up too? If you wait until the right time you don’t need to punish and shame. Some child parenting advice is just awful! It’s entirely the fault of the parent to start too early, keep going when it’s clearly not suitable for dc and then punishing them when they haven’t developed as other dc have. It’s utterly wrong.

I dont understand why you are bristling at the fact some of us have picked up on your comments about dehydrating him and making him clean up his mess. They were your comments and not something to joke about. He’s clearly trying but just not there yet.I agree that just reverting to nappies might give him mixed messages , but I do think he may be picking up on your frustration and this is a stress reaction.

It’s not just about being physically ready though, they need to be emotionally ready too and your DS clearly isn’t there yet. It’s pointless to keep
going for months and months if they’re not getting it in my opinion. Just makes everyone stressed and frustrated.
Sometimes a few weeks does make a huge difference and it just clicks for them.

@Sidebeforeself If a dc has got nowhere in 8 months nappies snd waiting isn’t a mixed message. He doesn’t care just yet so isn’t getting any message at all. He might decide he doesn’t want nappies and have a light bulb moment. He’s not ready for training and that’s very obvious. Dc who are really don’t take 8 months and parents virtually abusing them. It’s horrible to read what the op has done. It’s awful and why subject a child to more cleaning up wee and mess? It’s not acceptable.

Good grief so many times I think I've seen it all on mumsnet and then something else always comes along.

You've started way too early and exposed your child to your frustration and anger and have humiliated him to make him clear his mess up as a toddler. That is so sad.

Anyway we are where we are and you can't turn back time. He can't do it. If he wees 3 times in 90 minutes he doesn't have full control, or just doesn't care or whatever.

I'm afraid you might be in for a long process mine were like this and took ages to be fully reliable. Nothing wrong with either of them.

So for the now go to pullups and dont worry about the preschool thing. If that is really the case and he can't do it then he can't go to preschool, end of. But end of the day I doubt that they will refuse a just turned 3 year old. Just cross that bridge when you come to it. You can't use work etc as an excuse either when your child is 3 years old whatever you are, you are a mother first.

@NoKnit When did these horrible potty training methods become the norm? I’m baffled. I don’t know anyone who started training a boy at 2, let alone fail for 8 months and getting the child to clean up after himself. Where has this advice come from? What has happened to common sense? Who wants to punish 2 year olds like this? Any basic reading around the subject from reliable sources tells parents dc develop at different rates.

4 boys here - waited until they told me they were ready to potty train, all over 3 and done in 3 days. Youngest was dry day and night within a week. We did chocolate buttons every time they went on the potty, then gradually phased it out.
I cannot believe you've continued with this for so long, torture for everyone!

No idea where these methods came from I certainly didn't use them.

Started with both my boys at 3 and even then it still took ages and years to be able to leave the house without spare trousers. I think the OP is making it very hard on herself. He is just 3 he couldn't give a monkeys by the sounds of it and either can't or won't do it. Nothing is going to change this magically so my suggestion is nappies since the patience and washing machine method isn't working for her