3 yr old potty training nightmare

[SErunner]

We've just stopped our second attempt at potty training with 3.2 yr old DD. She is an excellent communicator, fully aware of when she's going, can hold bladder for 4 hours plus routinely. She has been broadly accepting of wearing pants but will not go in a potty or the toilet. She just cannot let go and holds to the point she is beside herself with discomfort (but still won't go). We drew the line after 5 days and when yesterday she only wee'd once in 11 hours (when nursery put a nappy on her). Today I gave her the choice of nappy or pants and the relief on her face made my heart break. She has no interest in bribery whatsoever (never has). I've tried all the tactics (blowing bubbles etc to help her pelvic floor let go) - she spots manipulation a mile off. I've tried to be as relaxed about it as possible, sat with her reading stories etc to keep her calm. She is incredibly strong, stubborn, wilful, mostly in a wonderful way. I am at a total loss.

Would love to hear from others who've gone through the same and reassurance we will get there. Plus any suggestions/ideas. Everything I read is focused on getting them to go in the right place at the right time and suggests bribery as the solution. We have the total opposite problem in that she knows when and where to go, she just won't/can't. Nothing I read feels like it will help in our scenario. I feel like a total failure.

Hi OP, not exactly the same situation over here but it sounds to me like she’s just not ready. My DS was 3.3 when we started potty training for the first time - I was getting pressure/being asked by friends/family about starting for months beforehand but left it until he was clearly ready. I left a potty downstairs for about a month, no pressure and then one day after a bath he randomly asked to use it. Since then he’s worn pants everyday and it was a relatively smooth transition. He still has lots of accidents at school where he’s just too busy to remember/ask, but it’ll come and his school are really supportive with just letting him get there in his own time. At home/weekends he never has accidents now. Personally I think we get so much pressure to push them faster than they are ready for, so if there’s no other reason for you needing to do it now then honestly I’d just stop. She’ll come to it eventually. Totally get it’s stressful though, there’s always something!

sorry - I made a comment but have removed it

She maybe just isn't ready yet. Could you try getting her to sit on the potty/toilet with a nappy on? So she had the comfort of the nappy but gets used to sitting to do a wee/poo.

I understand the frustration. My son is 4.5 and still won't poo in the toilet. He has been potty trained since 2.5 for wees but just won't do a poo and still needs a nappy.

Thanks both. I agree, I think she just isn't ready. But I just don't know how she every will be?! She will sit on a potty with a nappy on and go but we tried transitioning to an open nappy in the potty and that was a flat out no. There just feels so much societal pressure and she is so advanced in so many ways in terms of independence. This just seems totally at odds with that. But I think perhaps that's my issue I need to address in terms of how I feel. She will start school next Sept so it just feels more and more pressured as time goes on.

Have you read 'oh crap'? I found that really helpful and it was really smooth sailing for us. I was doing lots of things wrong before I read it and once I implemented her methods it worked well and quickly. I do sympathise because I think after 3 they become even more stubborn and wilful and it becomes even more difficult!

Yes I've read it and tried that first time round. But she really just isn't amenable to the solutions they offer. She's impossible to manipulate, impossible to bribe, it really does feel like she's just 2 steps ahead of us the whole time! She knows when she needs to go but is voluntarily withholding as she only wants to do so in a nappy. I will go back to it though as admittedly it was a while ago I read it, thank you.

Not sure if this will help or not, but can you borrow a slightly older child (a girl) that your DD looks up to? My daughter idolises my goddaughter. DD is 2 and goddaughter is 5. She just wants to copy her, dress like her and be like her. As a result, when she saw a potty at my goddaughter's house, she sat on it and had a wee and potty trained herself pretty much over a weekend.

Is there a "cool" older friend or cousin or something that she can copy?

@SErunner hello I know this is an old thread but wondered how you got on and if you have cracked it yet and if so what worked?

I'm in the exact same situation no amount of bribery will work, will very occasionally go on the potty or the toddler toilet seat on the big toilet but will outright refuse to wee. I have tried all amounts of bribes, chocolate, stickers, blowing bubbles, running taps, letting her watch YouTube. We have read books watch videos but really are getting nowhere. Have given it a break for a couple of weeks now to try and ease the pressure!

Any advice gratefully received, i'm determined to try and crack it between Christmas and New Year whilst I've got a bit of time off work.

Hi @bubbletubble 👋 sorry to hear you're going through the same. To be honest we've parked it completely since this post. Still talk about using potty/toilet a lot and wearing pants. She'll sit on the potty and toilet fairly happily but just won't actually go. Ditto will wear pants for short periods sometimes then swaps back to nappy.

I haven't seen anything different in her behaviour that would make me think we'd end up with a different outcome, hence not trying again yet. Hoping we might get an opportunity in the new year sometime - new baby coming in March and would really like her out of nappies by then. But equally I don't want to get to the point of being so stressed as we were last time (her and us). Can't see that helping in the long run. Sorry to not have a more positive update!

I don't think there will be a magic solution for us - it's just going to be waiting until she's ready, which I've sort of made peace with.

Hi OP (and others struggling with this).

I feel for you. We tried and failed several times with my son before it finally worked when he was 3 years and 3 months old. We felt we had to force the issue then because he was a couple of months off starring school (children start at 3 where we live) otherwise we probably would have put it off for longer.

We were advised to use the "Oh Crap" method.

Now, for what it's worth, I hate that book. It's very judgemental and makes you feel like shit if your child isn't potty trained by two and a half, saying that after that point the task becomes so much more difficult. I don't know whether that's true or not but it's not helpful to read when your child is already outside that magic window of time when potty training is supposed to come naturally and you've tried and failed several times.

However, the one thing about that method which I think really does make sense is taking a few days where you hibernate at home and just have your child naked from the waist down.

What strikes me about your posts OP is that it seems to be a choice between wearing a nappy or wearing pants. Well, what if she wasn't wearing anything on her bottom at all? You have a few days at home where you just say, no more nappies, have a couple of potties lying around the place and toddler seat for the toilet. Don't panic or get angry when she wets herself, just remain matter of fact about it and say, next time you go in the potty or on the toilet.

It's OK to tank them up on apple juice for a few days so they need to pee more often. And we are a largely screen free home but I let DS watch episodes of Peppa Pig on my phone whilst sitting on the potty so that he would sit there for long enough to pee. After a few days he did start to get it.

Thanks @MissScarletInTheBallroom, appreciate the solidarity! We have done this but it's the same issue as with pant wearing - when she feels the need to go (either with pants on or naked) she runs to get a nappy (or cries for one if they aren't accessible). She absolutely flat out refuses to attempt to sit on the toilet at this point and wont go. She held her bladder for 7-8 hours the last time we tried refusing to give her a nappy and was absolutely beside herself in pain, but still wouldn't go until we put the nappy on.

She absolutely knows when she needs to go on both accounts and I am certain it is a psychological mechanism which is stopping us moving forwards. I just don't know how to overcome it other than to back off completely and let her take her time?

How long do you typically give it before deciding that it isn't working?

We tried for 3 days but there was no way I could put her through more than that. It was truly awful and I can't think her being so distressed could be in any way beneficial? Although happy to be corrected if others say they've persevered and got there! Was also worried about physical impact in terms of going into retention, developing a UTI, stool withholding?

Have you tried her in pull ups? Mine wore them for a few months before we did potty training at 3. I let them have the choice of potty or toilet (with trainer seat) in that period. But I didn't have to stress if they failed to make it. I was quite blasé about it after having a disastrous attempt with pants at 2.6.

DS was also a complete nightmare to potty train, very bright and knew what he was supposed to do but also extremely stubborn and hated the idea of pants and sitting on the potty. He did learn not long after he turned three but it had been a long battle of trying and then giving up and trying again. Bribery never had any impact at all. Going to preschool certainly helped though seeing all the other kids use the toilet - is your dd at nursery or preschool? He was much later diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome, as an adult he is still very bright and still incredibly stubborn!

She's been in pull ups for well over a year, can't remember how long to be honest. She can change them herself and is fully independent with dressing etc including her nappy so long as there isn't a poo to deal with. Yes she's been in nursery since she was 6 months and pre school since the beginning of the summer.

It's interesting you mention ASD - this was brought up by nursery as a query earlier in the year for a range of reasons. We have an NHS appt in April with a paediatrician but may consider private assessment after that if needs be. Similar to your son I would describe her as very high functioning, her communication and understanding is well advanced beyond her age in particular. Not to say she is in all areas though - very average in others e.g physical development, although not notably behind in any particular area other than potential the toilet training! Cant see how knowing this will help us with the toilet situation though.

Sorry to sound defeatist, I just am genuinely at a bit of a loss as to what to do as it feels like we've done everything we could but we're just stuck.

Have you contacted the ERIC charity? They're amazing

eric.org.uk/helpline/

I found their advice invaluable in supporting DS when he was withholding poos

I'd second the advice above of contacting either Eric, or Bowel and Bladder UK, who have dedicated pediatric support when you select the right option on calling them. Eric can be difficult to get through to, I had more luck with Bowel and Bladder UK.

If you are on Facebook, I'd also recommend the group Movicol Mummies, even if you aren't dealing with constipation. A lot of the parents on that group have DC with constipation issues because of withholding (often linked with ASD), and refusing to go unless in a nappy is a common question, with lots of experienced parents answering.

What I can say as a parent of a DC with constipation issues (not withholding linked) is I'd agree with your instinct not to do anything that pushes your DD into withholding more. That can trigger constipation problems which can causes damage that can take years to fix, and it's just not worth risking. Hopefully one of the helplines can come up with some suggestions that get you there gently!

She might prefer the squatted position vs sitting.
See if she’ll pee ON an opened diaper, on a pad or in the tub or shower base squatted.
Ditch the pull ups.

Thanks all. Sorry, might have derailed this with mentioning withholding. She was constipated and ERIC were very helpful getting us sorted in that regard, but not a withholding issue then or now (just chronic constipation which required a disimpaction regime and now a maintenance dose). My worry is refusing to give her a nappy for days could create a withholding problem, and we've already got enough challenge in the pooing department! When she has a nappy on she goes quite happily once or twice a day.

You are right though, it's worth giving ERIC a call to see if they have any suggestions - will do so!

Yes I'm in the movicol mummies group as a result of the constipation issue - it's a great resource 👍

It does sound she's really anxious about it and as you say it's working through the anxiety with her initially

eric.org.uk/information/toilet-anxiety/

As she's experienced constipation in the past i think you're right to be wary with regards to potential for withholding. Is she regularly having a poo now in her nappy ?

She might need desensitisation around the toilet before she's comfortable to do a wee or poo there

Definitely see what ERIC say I really think they'll give the best advice !

I also liked the mr poo goes to poo land app/video

I just wanted to add some solidarity.. my daughter is 3.5 and we tried age 3 but she withheld wee for 6/7 hours at a time. At first was doing little wees constantly all over the floor and by day 11 had built up to holding. Communication wise I’d say she’s actually behind so she wasn’t able to articulate why she didn’t want to go.
I stopped altogether and just put her on the potty after breakfast and before bed every night. We went 5 months without ever having achieved a wee on a potty.
Randomly about a week ago she woke up and told me she needed a wee. I didn’t believe her but put her on anyway and she actually did her first ever one.
That’s not to say she’s magically cracked it - we were going away visiting family for Christmas so I couldn’t give it another go then. I’m currently on day 4 of trying again and it’s HARD. She will sit there for ages and just not release then wee all over the floor 5 mins later. We’re working on getting her to relax enough to release so we can build the association.
I completely understand your stress as I’m worried about school in September, it feels like she will never get there. So just wanted to let you know you are not alone! We did finally yesterday manage a release on the potty so although we still have a really long way to go, there is a glimmer of progress where I genuinely never thought there would be one.
As someone with historic kidney issues that led to years and years of severe UTIs before I had surgery, I completely agree with you pausing to avoid her withholding urine. If she got a UTI and then associated weeing with pain it would undoubtedly make her avoid it even more.
If she will willingly wee in a nappy could you have her in pants/bottomless and just get her into a routine where you put her into a nappy for her to wee - eg first thing, at breakfast, lunch, before going out? Then that gets her used to weeing on cue and only holding for short periods? From there you might get her into a nice routine so when she’s more comfortable with the potty you just switch more easily onto that?
wishing you so much luck!

@killerqueenie We had very similar with our daughter (she's 6.5 now). She was potty trained for wees in 48h at 35 months but poos were another kettle of fish. She would withhold for days at a time until she had a nappy.
It took nearly 9 months but these are the steps we took to get her there in case this is helpful for you and DS.
We would give her a nappy for poo when she asked but insisted she did it in bathroom.
Then after a few weeks we moved to giving her nappy but asking her to sit on potty/toilet to poo. We used a screen to get her to sit long enough for this.
When she became used to sitting on toilet in a nappy I began cutting a hole in back of the pull up.
A small one at first and making it bigger every few days until the poo plopped in the toilet out of the pull up Previous to this we would always empty the pull up into the toilet in front of her and flush so she could see.
The hole in crotch of the pull up got larger and larger every few days until eventually she was down to just wearing the stretchy waist band of a pull up.
She would still shout for her pull up waist band when she needed a poo! One day she called for it and I just said quick go on the toilet and I will bring it. And by time I'd got it the poo was out and she was amazed and we did lots of praise and big deal of wow you did it without the band and you don't need it now cos your body knows just what to do etc.
And from them all was fine.
She is currently undergoing assessment for ADHD and ASD and it seems stool withholding is very common in neurodivergent kids.
Good luck to you with your son.
We are now having issues with our son who is just 3 and toilet training for poos is proving an issue again.

Thank you for the follow on posts, I did read them at the time and appreciated them.

I am amazed to be coming back to say we have progress. She had a mild bladder infection a few weeks back and bizzarely this seemed to be the trigger for a change in toileting behaviour for her. She is now weeing and pooing on a potty!! Sometimes choosing a toilet as well and using a toilet when out and about. We had a few days of her using the potty with an open nappy in it but she actually weaned herself off that with no drama. She is still wanting to wear a nappy in the day but there have only been a few occasions in the last 5 days where she has gone in it. Incredibly she also was dry overnight the night before last for the first time.

I really was despairing with our situation and couldn't see it ever improving. With the looming prospect of school in Sept it was causing me so much worry. I don't know whether she just happened to be getting to a point of being ready or whether the infection threw things off for her anyway and precipitated further changed. Who knows what goes on in their little minds!

I think I will do a push on the pants wearing soon as I don't want her to get too ingrained with nappy wearing whilst using the potty, but equally am so worried about ruining the progress!