3rd old daughter refusal to pee/poo without pull ups. Pls help!

[summerlass]

I’m really hoping there is another parent who can relate / help…..
My daughter turned 3 on 4th June 2023 and has a strange fear / phobia of doing any toilet outside of her nappy. She is currently in pull-ups as we moved away from nappies some time ago.
She is more than ready and has full bladder control. She has been dry at nights for months now so I now put her in pants at nights with no accidents at all and she has also started wearing them in the day too.
Some history…..
At 2-2.5yrs I started sitting her on a potty every night before her bath and she did it no problem but never once peed.
I tried many times to potty train her but she withholds her pee for long hours at a time and she has ended up with a minor urine infection twice from doing this.
She has full control of her bladder and has done so for a good 7-9 months.
She only ever pees standing up, and never does it sitting or in bed. She even refuses to pee in the bath! There is nothing that has created this fear, and she is always very upset when she has pee accidents in her pants in the day even though I tell her it’s ok.

One time when potty training her, she held her pee for so long, she could hold it no more and started to pee whilst sat on the potty and went to stand screaming in terror. It was awful 😢

Currently I sit her on the toilet for 5mins at a time, occupying her with books/toys. But she refuses to do anything and never has ‘accidents’ when playing as she has full control. (She only has accidents as sometimes forgets she has pants on during the day).
She receives a star every time she sits on toilet which leads to rewards.

Has anyone else experienced this fear? Can anyone help or provide advice on how to overcome a psychological block to peeing / pooing? It would be so much easier if it was a physical problem. How do you overcome a mental problem?

I’ve been told by HV and professionals from the ERIC helpline not to push her and to go with her needs. So currently when she needs to pee or poo I have to put a pull up on her.
I’ve tried incentives of buying her what she wants and she watches her friends and me use the toilet. We read books and watch videos but nothing works.

She just has this strange awful fear. Please can anyone advise or help or relate?

Thanks

We had a similar situation with my daughter, she wouldn’t poo except in a nappy. In the end we put a nappy on her but she sat on the loo with the nappy on. Then we ended up cutting a hole in the nappy and when she did a poo it plopped in… as soon as this happened a couple of time she was then fine and didn’t look back. Good luck!

We used to let her favourite teddy etc go on the potty first, then say 'it's your turn now or say ' can you show teddy how to do it ?' or another variation - oh dear teddy won't let you on the potty what shall we do - can you ask him nicely to let you go ? Anything to distract from the 'trauma'. All followed by profuse praise when she went of course. She also liked the performance of flushing the toilet.

No pull ups or nappies. Pants which she chose and pulled up and down herself. Autonomy seems important. ( It's easier in Summer if she wears a dress. )

Problem we have is she will not sit and do her business. Only does it standing. For a long time now she hasn't poos or peed sitting. It's so strange. I have 2 teenage boys and they were both fully potty trained way before they were 3. I don't understand where her fears have come from.

She often plays potty games with her dolls and teddy's and even her peppa pig. She just won't do it herself.

And when I sit her on the toilet without her nappy, she sits and holds her parts to stop herself from peeing then gets very distressed when she needs to go. 🤷🏼‍♀️

@summerlass this is exactly like my little girl. She also holds her bits when she's sat on the potty. We even had a period of her holding herself in the bath (which thankfully seems to have stopped). It's so odd - it's like a fear of actually releasing

I was told by ERIC it is a fear of releasing from what I told them. It’s so difficult to overcome and to know what to do. My daughter never pees in the bath and never pees sitting. Does yours?
Also, you could try getting her to wear underwear like I have but let her know she can have a pull up when she needs to go. It’s like potty training her but without using a toilet. Any progress is better than nothing. Is your daughter dry at nights? My daughter was dry for months and putting underwear on at nights was my first step. She never wets herself and it’s due to the fact she only likes to pee when standing

She might be physically ready but she’s clearly not emotionally ready. Take a break from anything toilet related for a while.

Random thought but have you tried a she-wee, so she can still see standing up?

No she’s not dry at night- her morning nappy is always very full! I don’t know if she will wee sitting as she doesn’t really tell us if she’s weeing. Only in the last few months has she sometimes started to say “I’m doing a wee” or “I need a wee” but not very often

My son is autistic and had sensory issues over toileting outside his pull up, particularly going poo. We sat him on the toilet in his pull up and then cut bits of it away over time once he felt secure with sitting to go pee and poo. We also watched a lot of cartoons like Bing which mentioned toilet training and made it a positive thing. He was allowed to play special games or watch programs on his tablet which he loved, so that he would want to sit for longer and also had a positive association with sitting. Plus it was a distraction from the sensation of peeing freely once the nappy began to be cut away. It takes time and patience.

Advice from the National Autistic Society

www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/topics/behaviour/toileting/parents#:~:text=Sit%20your%20child%20on%20the%20toilet%2C%20keep%20the%20nappy%20on,without%20the%20nappy%20at%20all.

• Some children find the feel of a full nappy comforting, and may enjoy the sensory feeling of the weight of the nappy. Find alternative ways to replace these feelings so you can continue toilet training. Give your child a means of requesting the activity eg being wrapped in a warm, heavy blanket and fit it into their routine.
• Sit your child on the toilet, keep the nappy on but with a hole cut in the bottom, slowly cut away the nappy each time until they are able to go without the nappy at all. To start with, they will still have the feeling of a security around their waist which in turn will enable them to feel relaxed enough to poo on the toilet.

The latter works for pees too.

Yes I agree, I’m just going to keep her in pants and let her wee in her pull up for now. That way she is prepared for it when she can pee into the toilet.

@Notanotherone5 Funnily someone else recommended this. I tried to get a urine sample once and it was a nightmare. They stuck a bag over her parts to get it and even then she held her pee for hours. I think it’s a sensory thing for her? But I may try this just to see, though I do t honestly think she will do it

I honestly wouldn’t sweat it. Just let her be. One of my children was like this and she hen one day just took herself to the toilet when she was a similar age to yours. I think the op who said they need to be emotionally ready is spot on. She will get there

@Choconuttolata Thsnk you so much for this. Really useful advice. I do sometimes wonder if my daughter may be on the spectrum for many reasons. My 17 year old son was diagnosed with autism when he was 7 so I know alot about it.
I never had these issues with him when potty training but I know all children are different.
I will try to get her sitting on the toilet with her nappy to pee and if I can get her sit and pee will try cutting holes next.
Thank you so much x

There's an app called Poo goes to Pooland. A little story about a poo who needs to get back to his poo family. DS would watch this whilst on the toilet, helped massively.

I agree with the sensory ideas & release problem concept. It's common in autistic kids. If your son is autistic your daughter has a raised likelihood too. Putting something across the toilet bowl to catch the pee/poo so it doesn't drop all the way in may help also, then work from there.

You're doing all the right things.

As another option, I would suggest your reward system is not motivating enough. She is too young to really be motivated by saving up stars for a reward. It needs to be instant and more motivating than a star. Something she really really wants. Since it will likely be short term you could reward with chocolate or a small toy each and every time she sits on the toilet / does something on there.

I'd let it be for now. I had similar with my autistic 12 year old and pooing. We didn't think we were ever going to get him to stop using pull ups. It was a major worry for a while until I just decided that actually he couldn't possibly keep this going into adulthood and just let it all the worry and judgements from others go.
He stopped around a year ago!

It's been a long slow process of not getting annoyed but random discussions about all things toilets, plumbing, pooland (too babyish for him) whether it's fair of him to expect other people to clean him up etc etc - he was a lot older than yours at this point. The cleaning up part eventually sunk in with him, and he transitioned to cleaning himself up in the bathroom alone after a few months of that discussion being raised. After that transition we praised now and again, he didn't like it being highlighted too much so it was a quiet 'I'm so proud of you' now and again. We then turned the discussion to, 'if you put two sheets of toilet paper in the bowl it stops splashes' and 'have you worked out that if you pooed on the toilet and not in the pull-up it doesn't take so much time and effort to clear up'. I say discussion, these were more just random comments with no demands on him to discuss with us or offer up his opinion, nor were they ever in front of anyone else, so we weren't shaming him, just giving bits of information he may or may not pay attention to. Eventually, he just pooed on the toilet, didn't mention it to anyone, I just discovered it. He's never gone back to a pull up since, I don't even mind if he forgets to flush, so pleased he's finally got over whatever it was stopping him.

Give her a break. There is no rush. I had one child who was easily potty trained by 2.5 and another who was still doing poos in pull ups at 6.5. He's autistic and had a fear of the toilet although not weeing. I didn't want him to hold it in because that can cause terrible issues so I just went with it. Eventually I started to reduce the size of the pull ups so he found them uncomfortable and then said he was such a big boy they didn't do them in his size. He held on for a few days but eventually gave in. He's 12 now and I can't get him off the bloody loo 🙄.

Your DD is still very small. She's not ready and I'd just leave it for a bit and try again. She'll get there eventually.

@atthebottomofthehill Thank you for your message. Yes I know statistics are higher though she has a different dad so who knows?
sitting on the toilet is easy for her now so I will change her reward system to instant reward if she does anything.

This morning I sat her on the toilet with her pull-up on and asked her to try and do a wee in her pull up whilst sitting. Told her she would get a reward if she did it. 5 mins on the toilet and she was distressed at the concept of sitting and weeing even in her pull up! She has always stood and peed which is why she never wets her bed at night too.

Im starting to think now the fear she has is associated with sitting and weeing? It makes sense now as the one and only time she started to wee on her potty (after hours on it with activities to do) she was traumatised and started to stand as she peed. This really is strange.

@summerlass

I’m not sure if people still get notifications from older posts, but I was wondering what happened in the end with the OP’s daughter?

I’m in a very similar situation. My little girl has just turned three and seems to have a real mental block around doing a wee on the potty or toilet. She’s fine wearing knickers for hours, but as soon as she needs a wee she panics and shouts for a nappy.

She’s definitely aware of when she needs to go, if she’s in pull-ups she’ll say things like, “I’m doing a wee right now,”or ask, “Can I sit on your lap and do a wee?” or “Can I sit on the pillow and do a wee?”

This morning I tried encouraging in her to sit on the potty with her nappy still on, and even promised an episode of her favourite programme if she managed it. But when she really needed a wee, she just couldn’t do it. She was sitting there, trying, and said, “Can you please help me do a wee?”

We’ve tried so many approaches, but I’m worried that the resistance, or whatever block is going on in her head, is actually getting worse.

Has anyone been through this? And OP Did it eventually just click with your kid?