Can I delay DS starting school due to not toilet trained in time?

[ashamednamechanger]

Ds is 4 in March and is due to start school in September.
However, after trying to toilet train him since last September, it is just not happening.
He wees anywhere and everywhere. He also, and this has happened 3 times in the past week alone, pooed on the floor. Seems inordinately proud of himself when he does this.
Have been trying to remain patient but the last straw was this morning when I caught him weeing into the toybox in the living room. I now have to remove all the toys and clean them one by one....disgusting.
Frankly, he will never be ready for school and I refuse to send him in nappies.
Can I delay him starting school? If so, for how long? When is he required legally to start?

Didn't want to post and run. I don't know what the answer is to whether you can delay school, but maybe you could give your doctor a call and see if you can get some support with the potty training? My DS is nearly 3 and a half, and still not trained, so don't be ashamed. When I googled delayed potty training, they suggested that under 4 was not a problem, but once they are 4, some help may be required. They might want to check that there isn't a medical problem. Sounds to me like its a deliberate, defiant behaviour. Some of the stuff I read suggested with that, you have one last discussion with your DS about appropriate toileting, remind him where the potty is, where the clean clothes are, and then leave him to it. The suggestion was that by making absolutely no fuss about it, you remove the cause for defiance iYSWIM?

I think that the norm is that late trainers usually get the idea very quickly, so maybe he'll sort it out over a weekend and be ready for school?

You can delay him, legally, until Summer term but you may be surprised that he gets it suddenly in the meantime. Does he go to preschool or on playdates and if so how does he cope there ?

First of all, September is a long way off yet, stop panicking.

If he is 4 in March he doesn't have to start full time education (school or home ed) until Easter 2013 and while schools don't tend to routinely offer starting at Easter, he is not legally required to start until the term after he turns 5. You can choose to delay his start date and they have to keep his place for him.

Maybe have a chat with the HV for help with the toileting issues? Sounds more like a behaviour issue than not being aware he needs to wee, if he is doing it on purpose somewhere inappropriate.

You have 9 months to tackle it. He will learn. Back to basics with him. Fresh start etc

I am pretty certain this is all about power/attention. He is well aware where the toilet is, and what it's for. He will use it, but not very often, preferring the floor or up the side of the kitchen cabinets.
He goes to pre-school every afternoon. All the other children take in a little bag woth a drink and a toy in it. Mine takes a rucksack full of clothes and underwear!
The HV advised me to put a potty in every room....potty!!

How do you react when he pees / poos somewhere other than the toilet / potty? Have you considered changing your reaction?

How is he otherwise in terms of obedience, sociability, eating, sleeping? Does he have siblings?

I understand you not wanting to send him in nappies but (in the event that he's not trained by Sept) is it not possible that being in a more formal setting where all the other DCs are using the loo will actually make him try harder?

Don't know if this helps or not. When I was potty training my DS, he would wee quite happily in the toilet or potty but it was a bit hit and miss whether he would poo in his pants or the potty. Mostly it was in his pants.

I started off being all calm and rational about it and didn't make a fuss. Then one day he poo'd in his pants and I went bananas and had a good old rant at him.

I thought I'd completely blown it and that I would make matters worse but in fact it was the opposite.

I do wonder if by not making a fuss before that DS was left with the impression that it was OK to poo in his pants. After that it was sticker chart for every poo in the potty and some chocolate buttons and it did work.

We just try to ignore when he does something not in the loo as it will just give him the attention he is after.
I clean it up and say nothing while he dances round laughing.
Re other areas of life- he has 2 older siblings who are amazed when he soils on the floor as they would never have dreamt of dong that.
Eating0very picky and refuses to sit down at the table with the rest of the family. We are adamant that meal times take place in the kitchen, at the table as a group every day....no meals allowed in front of the TV or in own room etc. But he just runs round and round and will not sit down with us. Again we try to ignore as it is attention seeking again.
Sleep is not really a problem. He has bath then a bit of TV then bed so gets a good 12 hours a night.
He has been in quite a lot of trouble at pre-school for biting, pinching and scratching the other children....he also attacks his siblings regularly. We have told them not to hit back and they generally go and play elsewhere when he starts. Parents at pre-school have complained and I have offered to remove him, but they have a non exclusion policy.
Don't really know what else to try.....help!

Same boat here, ds is 4 in June and still will not get it. He's at preschool and the only one who wears pullups, so tbh just isn't bothered that all his friends wear pants. I have been assured by the leaders there that it's not that unusual, especially for boys, and that he will most likely suddenly surprise me. But I have 10 weeks til we have a new baby and I'm worried that we won't have cracked it before than.

Speak to SENCO at preschool, a lot of what you describe sounds out of the ordinary. I also had a difficult child after 2 model (well, sort of) older children, so I feel your pain. Even if formal SN not involved, think about experimenting with ways to get thru to him as an individual. Sometimes different children need different parenting strategies, it's not fair, but it's a reality you have to recognise to best meet each child's needs. It sounds like ignoring his bad behaviour is not working for you (not improving anything), & you need to find a different approach.

Don't think of SN as stigma if they find a recognisable SN, instead it's a way of meeting his unique needs better. I suspect the reluctance to toilet train is tied to other unaddressed issues.

ps: why do you refuse to send him to school in nappies? He wouldn't be the first or only. Very very bright girl in DD's year was in pull-ups for ages in reception.

I really think children going to school in nappies is

Ah, well, if it's an "Over my Dead Body will He still be in Nappies" reaction I totally get you. :). But they are still very little some of them. Or have sensory/gross motor control issues (subtle SN). Nappies are better than mess & embarassment. Socially it's usually better if they all start together so I would aim for that.

If your son is having problems with behaviour at pre school, have you sort outside help. Prehaps your son would benefit from seeing a community paediatrian about challenging behaviour and continence. Prehaps your son would benefit from a hearing test or seeing a speech and language theraphist. There is nearly always a reason for difficult behaviour. Its a matter of a small boy getting the right help.

Nine months is a long time and I would not delay him going to school because of nappies.

Thing is, I already have Ds1 who has been diagnosed with Aspergers. The thought that DS2 might be the same is something I am trying to not even contemplate.
The thought of having to go through all that again is awful. Which is probably why I am trying to find other reasons for him acting like this.

I'm sorry that you are going through so much ashamednamechanger. My son had similar problems, but admitally at a younger age. He had an assessment for autism and we found out that my son had severe glue ear. He had grommets and his adenoids removed and was a different child after the op.

Even if your son has autism then he can lead a happy life with the right help and support. Schools and doctors are much better at helping children with autism than they were twenty or even ten years ago. The earlier that specialist help starts the better the outcome.

One point from the original question: You can close to defer entry until September or April, but you need to apply and secure his place in the regular admissions round.

Once you have a place, you then talk to the school about start dates. If you decide school is not right for him, you can always relinquish the place. But if you don't apply on time, you might not get a place acceptable to you if the schools you like are already full.

Just to say my dd2 is almost exact same age and only just this week it has clicked. I too was getting worried about her starting school in nappies. She has just literally gone from poo in pants everyday and wee accidents every other day to be completely dry this whole week. I wish I had some kind of miracle cure but I don't - I just wanted to share that you aren't alone.

Thanks, it's a relief to know that other parents have overcome this problem.
I have applied for a school place for him, so if he is offered a place, I will have a chat with the Head. He's really very nice so hopefully will save DS a place.

Please don't worry. DS (4 next month) has just been potty trained on the 3rd attempt and since Boxing Day he has had a handful of accidents and is also dry at night. I tried twice last year, at 3.4 yrs and 3.6yrs, both ending in disaster and frustration for us both. EVERYONE told me to relax, that it would happen in time and when he took to it, it would just click. And guess what, they were totally right. Now until September is such a long time in terms of his development, you honestly have loads of time. You're not alone