Dec 08- Must keep chocolate & cheerfulness near, teething time is nearly here!

[pmk1]

Right.... back to post the link now!

Very quickly - JJ, it is so hard when they are in that sort of mood. I sometimes let M cry for a few minutes in case he can settle himself to sleep, which he often can. Other than that, I would go for a walk / drive as the motion is very calming for babies and there is usually a cup of coffee in it for you as well. We all get cross with them and I have shouted at DD1 when she was a baby (and both girls since!) but if they are treated kindly 99% of the time, the odd shout is not going to harm them. If shouting is upsetting you, then put her somewhere safe like her carseat and go into a different room for a few minutes to compose yourself.

Overnight feeding - er, choc, mags, DVDs to keep y ou company as you feed, daytime treats. Not very constructive but helped me with DD1. This too shall pass.

Lots of love to you now.

JJ ditto to what PMK said and Effie esp the overstimulation bit. Putting down and listening to her crys might help or even just let her tell you off and have a grizzle and don't feel like you have to fix it. As far as stimulating let her have some chill out time put her down on a mat with maybe one little toy or thing to look at or one thing hanging from the play gym and leave her don't feel you have to play or show her the toy, though it is tempting because it fun, and just let her explore things herself. Then when you notice her looking away from the toy or getting a little irritable take her and try to settle her to sleep then, either in her arms or whatever works. If you can avoid settling her on the boob do as this may be why she is having trouble on the boob to feed but if needs must that's fine. As far as the feeding issues I know I'm always harping on this but get some advice from someone trained for this. Check if there is a bf group near you or a bf councellor, or ring the BfN or LLL helpline. DH will survive this and so will you. These first several months are all consuming, I think you have already ready 'what mothers do' but if you haven't have a look at it, if you have time. The good news is you will get some semblance of your life back one day. It might be a good idea to get out and to something you used to do in your old life, your singing group or meet some old friends.

As far as not liking her some days thatvis also normal, I'm ashamed to admit one of DS1s first full sentences was "your driving me mad!" mmmm....wonder were he heard that.

It sounds like for some reason she's not getting full up with every feed and def not fast enough. Whether it's wind or not latching properley I'm not sure, but that HV sounds like a muppet. When B fusses - it's almost always either wind or nappy and he refuses to feed with either of those two.I'm not too good at figuring out the why's though... One thing I have had to do is take Fenugreek which has helped and I have been able to express 6-7oz in the mornings now which I make sure he has for last feed. Hopefully the experienced BF-ers will be along with some advice - sorry if I'm not too helpful. Is she gaining weight etc and her nappy always full regularly?

DH now home and doing the last bit of her bedtime - I gave her a bath, milk in a darkened room, and just putting her down as he arrived so he's saying goodnight and she's yelling usually going to sleep is easy-ish, as long as she finds her thumb (LadyT she never took to dummies but sucks her thumb quite happily), would grizzle a bit and then go off to sleep but recently has been finding it, then getting cross and flailing around and losing it and so losing her main way of comforting herself. Had a half hour attack this morning, and seems to be kicking off again now. Welcome home dh

ros that's a good idea, I've never really told dh quite how hard it is, just whinge at him and then it gets brushed under the carpet. He did have the day of looking after her so it might be time to ask him to have another one to help out

effie hadn't thought of that position, will certainly try. She's very hard to calm a lot of the time - eg lying in a darkened room doesn't do the trick. It seems to be that she's just massively over tired and so can't go to sleep, and the cycle gets worse. I wish there was a baby equivalent of ctrl alt del!

unfortunately I don't know a huge number of people who are free during the day that don't have their own LOs to look after. I would ask my dad to come up but he's very reluctant, is mildly disabled so he's not able to take her out in the pushchair and would only look after her if she was downstairs (doesn't feel safe carrying her on the staircase). Tomorrow should be baby yoga but if she's in a horrid mood it's not really fair to inflict that on everyone else!

JJ I really feel for you.

I don't know if it makes you feel any better - but I think everything you're feeling and saying is completely normal - when DS was this age I could have written the same.

I don't think there is some sort of inevitable progression from newborn to toddler - so if you can try not to think they should be doing x or y it might make it a bit easier. DD certainly hasn't grown out of wind and she's 4 months now (and neither has DH and he's quite a bit older ). All of what you describe is just being a baby IME. And it is hard! And no one who's done it thinks otherwise. One of the things that I think is difficult is that we all carried idealised notions of motherhood in our heads - and then fall short on a daily basis.

You must be kind to yourself - am sure part of the reason you're finding it hard is because you're so tired. This amount of sleep deprivation is a known method of torture. It's enormously difficult to get any sort of perspective. On a practical level I wish I lived closer and could offer to help more - if you want to get on a train you can come and lie on our chaise all day tomorrow But this is the sort of thing I eventually did when I was dog dog tired with DS. And they helped:

• try to break the day into smaller bits - and just aim to get to lunchtime/next feed/bathtime. So it doesn't loom so much.
• indulge yourself as much as humanly possible. I used to have the occasional day where I barely got dressed, ate absolute rubbish (mainly patisserie) and watched endless episodes of Morse/and or the West Wing. A problem if you do it every day - but one day of basically being a bit of a child can be marvelously thereputic. Whatever would cheer you up - do it.
• If this isn't completely contradictory a bit of a walk in the sunshine can be v restorative. And crying doesn't sound so bad in the open air.
• take a break. If you're by yourself and she's really crying and you feel like you can't cope just put her down somewhere safe and step away for a bit. No baby ever came to serious harm by being left to cry for a bit on the odd occasion.

If you can, keep in your head that this is a v short time in your life - even though it feels endless it will get better and you will get through it (this too will pass...). I think it's also a bit of a shock once you realise your little one has opinions of their own about what they want to do. It's easy to see this and celebrate it when you've had some sleep, but not so much when you're blind with tiredness. I was moaning at my Mum about how willful DS was the other day - she managed to restrain herself from laughing heartily now the boot is on the other foot - but did point out that I would probably rather he had such a strong sense of self (in the abstract yes - when I'm trying to get his shoes on no).

Am sorry - am struggling to get them off to bed tonight so this is probably incoherent. But wanted to say I was thinking of you - and you're not alone.

sorry crossing posts with everyone, thanks for all your ideas. veggie I took her to ur local BFN meeting and that's where I got the adive about feed her whenever she asks! They said she's probably got very efficient and gets as much as she needs in the first 5 mins of vigorous suckling and then the rest is for comfort - that's why it's so hard to know when to take her off. Not sure if i believe that!

sybil - have been out walking with her lots and lots and usually she will nod off but wakes up again very easily (eg if I arrive home...).

She's still yelling The grizzling self to sleep thing used to be easy to cope with, as we knew she's get off in the. Just have no idea why she's so angry at the end of the day any more. Maybe we need to put her to bed a lot earlier, I know some of you put your babes to bed at 6.30 or so. This would mean DH never sees her awake though

I htink one of the most difficult things is tyhat there ARE no absolute answers, you just try what you can and see what works... and sometimes nothing does. But if she's crying or not settling it doesn't mean you are a bad mnother, it just means she is a baby. She's growing and changing all the time and IMO some babies don't like that AT ALL (DS1 certainly didn't).

JJ this might not be practical for you, but when DH wasn't going to be around for bathtime for a bit I used to go and meet him for a coffee or lunch (but we lived v close to his work). Could your DH take 15 minutes during the day? Might make you feel better - and break the day up a bit.

Also I don't know if you use it but I've rediscoverd Spot's babysleepnoise website and am using it a lot. Works like magic sometimes [http://www.babysleepnoise.com/download.html here]]

JJ - Like the others I really feel for you. I have felt very similar. In fact when I had DD1 I could have written every word of your post on many occassions. With DD2 I have had more breaks - partly because I have been less hard on myself, and to be frank, I have not made myself parent to the same perfect standard. With DD1 I felt I had to be there for her every minute of every day. With DD2 I have not had the time or energy to do that and when it gets too much I have been known to leave her to cry in her cot. I thought this was pure cruelty when I had DD1 but for DD2 it seems almost necessary. She cries and protests but she seems to get it out of her system and then she sleeps, and I rest, and we both come back to each other very refreshed and smiley. This approach is not for every mother or every baby but it is sometimes the only way I can get DD2 to sleep and without her sleep neither of us can thrive. That is what I have to say about daytime sleep. I can offer no help with the nights as we are far from cracking them here.

JJ if you don't believe it then it's not true. Generally the long feeds are due to latch issues. It would be good if you could get someone to have a look at your latch. Oh sorry gotta go....

Right - am off to bed as she seems to have gone off at last. Have asked dh to book another day off asap to help out during the day.

lal - meeting up for lunch might work, it depends on how many home visits he has to do. Got to be worth a try!

Thanks so much everyone for your advice and mostly for being sympathetic shoulders to cry on! Sorry for such a massive rantathon and relentless negativity again. Am rubbish without sleep. What happened to staying up til 4 every night as a student? [weak grin]

jj - I really feel for you. I know what you mean about it getting harder. I feel like we've gone backwards too. We were having 2 feeds a night and now it's back at every 1-2 hours. I used to be able to judge when she was ready for a sleep and put her in her cot and she'd settle, but now she squawks and I end up taking her out and letting her sleep on me. She used to only cry with hunger or tiredness but now she has really cross times and I can't settle her. I guess they're getting older and their 'routine' is going to be adapting itself constantly. I feel I've lost confidence over this last week and I'm questioning how I do everything. A few weeks ago I was quite happy to go with the flow as long as she's happy and healthy, but now I almost feel like I should be conforming to some routine or other to make it 'work'. In terms of practical stuff I find that holding her facing forward (her back to my front) calms her usually. Often if she's in a stew I change her nappy - even if it's dry - she seems to calm down with a bare bum - probably because I give up trying to get her to do whatever it is I'm trying to do and just give her some space! I don't have any answers - like I was saying earlier I've been wondering about the FF before bed but have a feeling it would make no difference. In a way I'd like it to make no difference because then I could feel that there was nothing else I could be doing different and be more happy with what I am doing. I found it reassuring that Verso said it makes no difference to her dd2. Sorry I've really waffled on - but I just want you to know (like everyone has said) you're not alone in this - I'm convinced it's a stage of development and they will come out the other side. You are amazing. Your dd loves you unconditionally. You're allowed to find it impossibly hard and to get cross. Really hope you get some sleep tonight.

That's a v good tip re: nappies Trace. DS2 always grins when I change his nappy but hasn;t thought of it as a calming techniique - doh!

Hello!
Laptop got no batteries and at MILs so will be quick.
jj I hope you are ok, sorry am not around this week as you could have come and chilled out at mine all day or left DD with me for a couple of hours. Maybe you could try Rachael and see if she wanted to meet up. Also definitely go to yoga, DS always kicks off when I go, but no-oine seems to mind.

But we can definitely meet up next week more! Sorry she is being a pain in the arse, DS is a bit too. i just had to let him cry himself to sleep (producing endless advice from MIL obviously). right posting before laptop goes...

Oh and I so NEARLY just had a go at MIL as I had hardly any sleep last night and she just went on a vastly annoying rant about how hard she had it with DH when he was little and how easy we have it these days....grrrrr....she is lucky I didn't punch her.

Oh also my bit of advice is to have something little planned to do every day, so I try to go out and meet someone/do something every day. Just makes the day go faster, and like we have said before the little shits darlings always behave better when they are around others. Come to think of it - don't know what you are complaining about - S is always lovely when I see her

jj - oh, love, it's so hard. this time last week i was crying for hours after madam had been a right little pain in the arse and i felt i had lost my confidence. today we took madam to my cousin's house for a family reunion - there were 2 other toddlers and another baby who was born 3 weeks after dd. and madam behaved like a gem - she was bright as a button, laughing and smiling at anyone who came near her. then when she'd had enough she did a bit of grizzling and dh did his magic trick of getting her to go to sleep on him (i do not possess this trick in the slightest - it is the pram and endless hours of pacing the streets for me). then she woke up again and was the brightest, sweetest, cutest, most adorably adorable little thing again.

i cannot tell you why, how or whether it will happen again, but it did happen, things change, and in the words of nanny anne, this too will pass...

sleep well, love

sl - don't you just want to deck them when they say things like that?

SL what is your MIL talking about, have babies somehow changed over time and are now more user friendly? I give you permission to poke your tongue out at her when she is not looking.

I third the nappy change thing, and go further to say that ds2 settles down heaps if he's grumpy if I leave him with his nappy off for a bit.

Crossing fingers for a good night's sleep for Jump and Junior Jump.

I have just caught up with The Apprentice - I don't know why I bother, it's so aggravating. They are, for the most part, emptyheaded, cliche-spouting, venal little twerps with the all the charm and business acumen of a rotten fish head. Maybe that's why I watch it. Even though my career seems to be going down the crapper, I feel brilliant that I am not them, with their uncomfy looking suits and crude blaming of each other.

My legs still hurt a lot and also I put my back out yesterday trying on all those pairs of jeans. Not a noble injury. If anyone's seen Midnight Cowboy, I am walking - I use the term loosely - like Ratso Rizzo

Night night all.

JJ fingers crossed you had a better night???
Lady glad your legs are feeling better.... shouldn't you be skirt shopping however?

jj how was your night? How are you feeling today? Thinking of you xxx

Hope you had a better night jj

Morning,

JJ I hope you had a good night. I hope that this passes soon for you.

Trace, Ros Is the York meet still going ahead next week?

I hope everyone is ok, DS2 slept all night last night which I have put down as a fluke. But I feel a bit more alive today than I have done this past week.

Darling JJ, I was awake at 3.30 with M and thought of you in Cambridge. How was your night, lovely? Fingers crossed today is cheerier for you.

Kayz, brilliant news for D's sleep. I know what you mean - M slept all night on Sat and I felt so much perkier as a result.

Feeling a bit black dog today. I need an episode like Effie's bra or a painted arse to cheer me up. Any suggestions, girls?

Girls, can I just say M's all nighter on Sat was a one off. First time in weeks and up half the night last night.