Sept 08 - Is it day or night?

[lollyheart]

Hope no one minds me starting a new thread?

Pacita try Olive oil for dry spots or sunflower oil. It's what they use at baby massage and has worked well on M who was very dry (made her smell like roasted veg though )

IL's have finally left and I'm looking forward to getting back to normalilty. No chance of M sleeping anywhere in the day except relatives arms and no extended sleep as she's been passed from pillar to post abnd in and out of cars etc./

A calm day tomorrow I hope

Imoscarsmum I envy you getting sleep from the 11pm feed till morning! However, it's not worth an evening's screaming. I assume you've tried gripe water? Infacol? The other thing I was recommended to try, which is fairly controversial but worked wonders when T was screaming all day and all night, was Yakult (yes, the yoghurt drink). He had 5ml twice a day (now once a day), and it's got his gut working far better - although he did suffer with bowel as well as wind. The other things to try are keeping baby upright for as long as possible after the evening feed, and keep moving positions (over shoulder, cradle hold, lying on her back). We found that eventually one of the positions would prove vaguely comfortable and T would settle. the other lifesaver was the baby bjorn, as it seemed to have the right combination of holding his back straight and keeping him very cosy - any sling that does this might help. Horrendously, the other thing that worked was putting him down for 5 mins, as he was so relieved to be picked up again that he stopped screaming for a bit and would sometimes then be relaxed enough to nod off - tension seems to make the colic a thousand times worse, so anything that relaxes them helps. I'll let you know if I think of anything else we tried that worked...

T wakes up at the deeply annoying time of 4:30ish, which means by the time he's fed (around 50 mins) and settled (around 30 mins), it's virtually time for us to all get up again (I try to start his morning feed by 7:30 at the latest, 8am if he's really not settled after his night feed). I would really prefer an earlier night waking in a way, but I'm also hoping that he'll begin to wake later and later and that feed will become his 7am feed, and if he doesn't I'll begin to shrink that night feed. I'm beginning to think he's waking at 4:30am out of habit, as he'll settle after a smallish feed.
If he starts regularly making it beyond 5am I might start giving him his last feed at 11:15pm rather than 10:30, and trying to make him wait till 6:30 for his morning feed. All it means is poor DP gets to settle him really late (he always settles him after the last feed so I can throw myself into bed for a precious few hours!). Any thoughts?

Ninja I pity you with an actualy visit from inlaws - mine live close enough that they don't need to stay, but far enough away that we don't see them every week. Annoyingly my mother lives 3 hours away, and she's the one person I would like to see more regularly, as she actually helps instead of just wanting cuddles with T. Are your inlaws nice or mad?

v nice but also mad. they're irish and love babies, but have practically ignored poor dd1(5). they LOVE shopping and i've had to take them out each day, which isn't so bad. it has been nice to have s'one to hold M, however, I feel like i've hardly seen her.! that's it for 6 months tho'

Hi ladies-just found this thread, and wondered if I could pick all your brains for a bit of advice, as I'm a first timer, and ot sure what is 'normal'!
M is 6 weeks old, and I'm not sure what is good/bad in terms of nght sleeping - he goes down pretty well at 7 after a feed, and will usully wake up ebtween 10 and 11 for the next one. Goes down with slightly more fuss this time, til around 3. After this feed, its much harder to get him back down, and he cries for at least 30 mins after down. Will then usually sleep til around 7, when he cries again (though if I pick him up at 7 and put him in bed with us, he often sleeps another few hours!-tho I dont like to get into this as a habit)
Is this normal in terms of how long he sleeps for? Are we being a bit premature to hope he can sleep for longer after the 1pm feed (ie til 4 or 5)? Does this not come til later? And are you meant to do anything to get them to do this, or does it just happen naturally at some point?
Thank you! x

Thanks ladies for the hints re:dry skin and routines revisited.Ninja I am using olive oil already, and will try to do it twice a day now, to see if the dry patches go. I hope this does not make the milk spots worse!

D has been feeding roughly every 2;30 - 3 hours. However, he was so unsettled this evening that we brought his bath time forward. This meant that his first night time feed was also earlier, but he fell asleep feeding and is now in his cot.

Hopefully, D also wakes up for his second night feed and won't settle for ages. I wonder weather this is, like you say, out of habit, or weather it is due to the fact that he's had a few hours sleep and is no longer tired. What does GF say about it?

So far, he has not gone any longer than 4 hours in the night, although it's generally more like 2:30 - 3. He is for and a half weeks, is this normal? I despair thinking that he'll never sleep through! Imoscarsmum, I'm dead jealous!

cat811, see posts above by me and Hopefully, we both have the same issue with difficulty sending them back to sleep after a feed in the middle of the night.

I wish I knew what the answer is!

Cat, welcome to our mad little group! It all sounds fairly normal for what most of us are experiencing, but you can do things to maximise your chances of increasing his night sleep as soon as he is ready to.

• Make sure your DS isn't sleeping too much in the day (much more than 4-5 hours and you're likely to have probs at some point during the night). Obviously this only applies if he's a good size and weight gain is good, otherwise it's best to keep stuffing food into him and letting him sleep whenever, but by 6 weeks if he's a healthy size you should be able to adjust daytime naps without health implications
• is he feeding enough in the day? most babies that age need at least 5 feeds between 7am-11pm, many will need more (my DS copes fine on 5, one of which is split either side of his bath, but he's enormous!)
• are you doing anything different to put him down after his night feeds? More/less settling from you? Are you more tense, anticipating a problem? Can you let him fall asleep on you and transfer him to his cot for a few nights, at least until he gets used to falling asleep quickly after this feed? Doing so once a day isn't going to affect any long term habits at this stage.

If I were you, I would start my day when he wakes at 7, rather than letting him sleep in bed with you (purely in the interests of getting food into him rather than because co-sleeping is bad) and try to feed him something like 3 hourly through the day.

Sorry if that's all useless advice... it's based on my vast 6 weeks experience as a parent!

Oh my god, i need to stop writing essays.

Pacita, sounds like D is going pretty good stretches in the night - I don't think we got regular chunks of four hours during the night until T was a good 4 weeks, probably 5.
GF is remarkably unhelpful on what to do with non-sleeping babies. She seems to be of the opinion that babies magically go to sleep as soon as you swaddle them and put them in the cot. However, she does suggest that beyond about 6-8 weeks with healthy babies the 3-5am waking is out of habit rather than hunger, provided they are getting a good feed at 10:30pm-ish. I think this tendency is probably increased by having lots of day time sleep, so by 3-4am they're nearing the point of having had enough for the night (when T has the right amount for his age he definitely settles more easily after this feed). She and various other people have suggested, among other things:

• offering a bit of cooled boiled water to settle them, even if they only take an oz or two before feeding
• dummy (yeah right)
• cuddles
• cutting the feed by 5 mins every other night
• making the last feed an hour or so later and starting the day when they wake for their 'night' feed, provided that feed is after 6am (I think this is a reasonable suggestion for me, as T normally wakes for his night feed as late as 5am, but probably not useful if baby is waking at 3-4am)
• stuffing an extra evening feed in - for instance, feeding at 5-6pm, 9pm and midnight, rather than at 5-6pm and 10:30.

I'm not suggesting any of these are right or proper (many pro-BFers will argue against the boiled water thing, and for all I know they may be right), they're just what's been suggested to me at various times by various people.

Oh my god, i need to stop writing essays.

Pacita, sounds like D is going pretty good stretches in the night - I don't think we got regular chunks of four hours during the night until T was a good 4 weeks, probably 5.
GF is remarkably unhelpful on what to do with non-sleeping babies. She seems to be of the opinion that babies magically go to sleep as soon as you swaddle them and put them in the cot. However, she does suggest that beyond about 6-8 weeks with healthy babies the 3-5am waking is out of habit rather than hunger, provided they are getting a good feed at 10:30pm-ish. I think this tendency is probably increased by having lots of day time sleep, so by 3-4am they're nearing the point of having had enough for the night (when T has the right amount for his age he definitely settles more easily after this feed). She and various other people have suggested, among other things:

• offering a bit of cooled boiled water to settle them, even if they only take an oz or two before feeding
• dummy (yeah right)
• cuddles
• cutting the feed by 5 mins every other night
• making the last feed an hour or so later and starting the day when they wake for their 'night' feed, provided that feed is after 6am (I think this is a reasonable suggestion for me, as T normally wakes for his night feed as late as 5am, but probably not useful if baby is waking at 3-4am)
• stuffing an extra evening feed in - for instance, feeding at 5-6pm, 9pm and midnight, rather than at 5-6pm and 10:30.

I'm not suggesting any of these are right or proper (many pro-BFers will argue against the boiled water thing, and for all I know they may be right), they're just what's been suggested to me at various times by various people.

Also need to learn to only press the post message button once...

LOL, thanks for the double post hopefully - essays are fine by me.

It seems like you are a bit ahead, past the magic 6 weeks that everyone goes on about. Even old wives tales talk about the 40 days, and in Greece women are not supposed to leave the house for that period of time...

Till then, I guess I'll just have to make sure he's growing and putting on weight...

Have put a couple of photos of T up on my profile, for anyone who's interested (especially for you Lollipop!) Pacita I would love to say everything changed at 6 weeks... However, I can at least now see that we're moving in the right direction. it's more a case of 3 steps forward, 2 back, whereas 2 weeks ago it felt like the opposite.

hopefully, we have exactly the same cot!

Cat Welcome to our thread. Hopefully has given some very good advice if you feel you need to actively DO something!

If you did nothing the sleep would sort itself out naturally (but possibly take a little longer), and it is far too early to form bad habbits.

Personally, what would/does suit me is to keep my lo up with you until I go to bed. I sacrifice my evening for a decent night, but I know it won't last forever.

Whatever you decide to do though keep these things in mind:

1. Your baby is very little and is used to being inside you. It is natural they want to be close until they begin to get nosey and brave. Forcing a ridgid routine onto them despite them getting distressed is imo barbaric.

2. Your instincts are probably right. Think about your instincts when deciding what to do, not what your mother/book/work colleague tells you to do, although by all means pick and choose advice if it feels right.

3. Think about how you like your days, structured/unstructured, routine/non-routine and very very gently work towards a pattern that suits you.

Hi everyone,

I haven't been on for AGES and have spent my spare time the last few days catching up on about 12 pages of posts!

I went down with an evil virus while up at the PIL's then when I was better DH finally went back to work so things have been hectic!

No one told me how much more stressful it is with 2 (21 months and 7 weeks) than with one! Dougie doesn't really have a routine as yet - DH works shifts so every day is different. So far I've had one night shift and 3 'evening' shifts. The night shift was going well until he woke for the 4am feed and then he wouldn't go back to sleep. I rang DH at work in a fluster and he said he never settles after that feed (he's been doing that one with my EBM). Then I had to cope alone all morning while DH slept and I was knackered and stressed. Dougie has colic and possible reflux (next doc appt on Friday) and so cries a lot and DD has been off colour too - temp and v wingey - I ended up loading the washing machine while holding D (swaddled) and with DD crying on the floor next to us for no apparent reason!

The last few evenings I've been on my own while DH was at work so I've been putting DD to bed an hour early at 6 just to get her out of the way so I could get my dinner and attend to Dougie. He's been spending the evenings down here with me and either sleeping or crying. Last night he slept all evening and I ended up waking him at 9:30 to feed. Tonight he's been awake a lot and right now is next to me on the sofa but keeps waking and screaming. I've been staying up til DH gets home at 10:15 and then going to bed. He feeds D the EBM at about 1am and then D has been sleeping right through til 7am which is great!

Tomorrow DH is on days off for 4 days so we'll see what happens then. Thing is, I can't imagine him wanting to stay up and feed D at 1am when he's back on mornings (up at 6am).

I remember reading BW the first time round and found some useful stuff, like the 3 hourly routine and reading their cues, but this time I haven't read anything at all and am not finding it comes back quite as easily as I thought. Plus they are such different babies - DD didn't have colic but was a much slower feeder. Dougie feeds for about 15 mins but then I have to sit with him keeping him upright for another 20 mins to half an hour to try and avoid him being sick. Plus I am not supposed to give him both breasts as then he is always sick. Last night I did as I didn't want to be engorged in the morning and couldn't be bothered to sterilise the pump again. Of course then he spent the next 15 mins being sick. How guilty did I feel!

He's awake and screaming again despite the dummy so am going to have to go now.

DH has just come in so I've handed Dougie over! BTW we have have had no central heating since the first cold night when the boiler (only 3 years old) packed in. The 24 hour emergency thing we pay for was crap - their terms of reference state they will get a plumber out within 24 hours but usually within 2. Well 24 hours came and went - in fact it wasn't until several phone calls later that finally a plumber came out the following evening. He couldn't fix the fault and said the crap plumbers who installed it (brand new house) had set it wrong and that's why it had gone. They have now sent away for a part. God knows how long that will take to come. In the meantime we are surviving as we have an electric fire in the lounge and a not very powerful electric shower in the bathroom (we usually use the wonderful shower in the en-suite). DH has bought fan heaters to keep the bedrooms warm. However we have no hot water so poor DD is having to have showers instead of baths (which she doesn't like) and we have to boil a kettle for the washing up. At least we have a dishwasher for most of it though so it could be a lot worse. As for Dougie he's only had one bath (DH boiled up a kettle and used the baby bath) but he usually only gets one a couple of times a week anyway as we used to bathe DD every day from birth and her skin became very dry and she had excema so we are doing it differently this time.

Right, I'm off now to say hello to my DH!

Starlight is entirely right - things inevitably do sort themselves out, so if you don't want to do anything, there's no worry that your child will still be waking 3 times a night at 18! If you're exhausted/not coping/don't want to risk ruining what you've got, it's got to be better to take what you can get in terms of sleep, and if you have to do some kind of gentle sleep training in a few months, so be it. It wasn't what I wanted to do, but I am a control freak!

Connie - How are you giving the EBM - are you expressing and putting it in the fridge and then giving it her later? It might be that it isn't warm enough, or maybe too warm? My DD drinks it cold, as long as I just take the edge off it, but my friends baby refuses it if it isn't the exact right temperature. Have you tried expressing and instantly giving a bottle to get her used to the bottle (as the temp will still be very similar iyswim).

Starlight - Sending them back is only semi evil, but I like your style! I was expecting to read that you were taking pictures to sell them on ebay!

Imo - That's really good about the Wilkinet, my DP was exactly the same, refused to go anywhere near any 'tree-hugger' slings! My DD has the restless night period, I don't believe there's anything you can do other than ride it out unfortunately. Some days she doesn't have it at all now, but I have no idea what I've done differently other than give her Infacol religiously but even that doesn't always work, but I've definitely noticed it's worse if I forget to give it to her for the whole day. We are just used to not eating at the same time now! Also, giving her a bath definitely settles her, it's almost like pushing the reset button, very odd.

Jearund - Jesus Christ, I would not be happy with no heating in this weather. Mind you, we don't have double glazing so when I go down stairs in the morning it's just as cold inside as it is out.

Cat811 - Have you tried keeping your LO down stairs with you for longer? I don't even contemplate putting my LO to bed before 10pm, although she does sleep in her basket or on one of us if she wants to. Personally at this stage I think that 7pm is a bit early, because it only means that you're pulling the time they wake up forwards, so maybe if you leave your LO awake until later (I assume you don't go to bed at 7pm as well?) and take them when you go up, then the whole sleep will be pushed back (theoretically!)

Oh, and has anyone heard from EandZ recently, I haven't seen her on MN for a while I don't think?

One last thing (I promise! ), if anyone was thinking of getting a swaddling blanket I've noticed that someone is selling one on the MN for sale board for £6 so might be worth investigating here

Jearund - just a quick note - you don't need to sterilize your pump, or your bottle for that matter. Just wash in hot water, rinse well and air dry (or in the dishwasher). There have been some good threads about it. This is what they do in most Special care units. Saying that I guess you have to feel brave not to when everyone else is!

I agee with ninja on the sterelising thing. I clean and run all my stuff through a steam stereliser because I don't have a dishwasher and like the equipment to reach a high temperature once, but it could be days before I use it and I don't re-sterelise iyswim.

BUT, you do have to make sure you get rid of any milk residue!

Hello all!

Re the whole sleep thing....... dd sleeps so so well during the day and pretty well from 1 until 6 or 7 am.

But the evenings (when I'm dealing with ds and dh and food and all) is when she's pretty grizzly.

I am reading a book (whose name shall not be spake) and I would LOVE to shift this pattern but I DEFINITELY do not have the strength of character, organisational skills, persistence etc etc to see it through...

I also find it hard to even understand all the systems!!! I think my head is too shot away for it! But the thought of a baby who slept from 7 til 7 is a glorious thought!

Have to run and do some chores while she sleeps!!