June 2008: new year, new diets, new resolutions, but when push comes to shove creme eggs are still the solution!

[KnittingRocks]

Sorry, couldn't cope with Christmas anymore!

Sorry Keepcalm, not sure if that came across right - and I still don't know how to word it so it comes across right! I'll just shut up now

Don't worry Neenz, I'm not offended. For me, birth was very much a means to an end. Despite doing lots of research, I felt that I wouldn't really know what it was like, or how I would feel until it happened, so I had a very relaxed approach to drugs. Hypnobirthing didn't appeal to me, nor did all the talk about preparing for an 'amazing birth experience' at the NCT classes. I have huge respect for people who choose hypnobirthing and put a lot of effort into preparing physically and mentally for labour, but it just wasn't for me. You could say that I was in the 'you don't get a badge for refusing pain relief' camp .

As it happens, I didn't actually have an epidural (although I asked for one, but that's a whole other story). I did have a shed load of pethidine though!

I'm relatively indifferent to my birth experience (though my immediate after care was a big upset for me) which suits me just fine. I do have a friend who was hugely into hypnobirthing and put loads of effort into mentally preparing for her birth and was devastated to have a very medicalised birth for one reason and another which I won't go into.

For me, I guess the most important thing was that no matter what I planned, events can overtake and the less expectations I had, the less likely I was to be troubled by it afterwards.

btw, I think the episode of Gypsy Weddings is the only one I've seen - I was equally horrified by it.

Oh, I had the very occasional when I was pg, but I'm pretty sure MN is 100% safe in pg (though I can't link to any peer reviewed research

Yeah, not allowed is different to actual practice, Neenz! I've had one or two glasses of wine, but not for ages. I am loving Cobra alcohol free tho; like it better than Becks blue.

Stop press just to let you know that I've just ordered 3 items from the BODEN MATERNITY WEAR range! I phoned DH to tell him that Boden now do maternity clothes, and he said we'll have to consider having a third baby now!

Epidurals - well, I kept shtum on that part of the discussion. I went in wanting an epidural (from around 12 wks pg ) and had one. I'm not impressed by natural labour really (being a medieval historian and all...) and always opt for medical science over mother nature. I did have contractions for 3 days though before I dilated enough, from Friday lunchtime to Monday lunchtime (seriously!!) so when it came to labour I was exhausted and so hysterical I'd arrived (the night before, still only 1cm btw!) in an ambulance. So really even if I had been against the idea I would probably have had an epidural by then.
But - no complications; by the time I was pushing there was very little of the epidural left and I refused a top-up (must have been on G&A because I can't believe I would do such a thing! ) and there were no after effects. I did have a cracking good epidural though. Breastfeeding - well, no problems there.

Next time - well, I'm not averse to having one again. Although I do muse about attempting not...anyone fancy convincing me on hypnobirthing?

Got to go to bed - Iestyn has a cough and keeps waking me up.

Light at the end of the tunnel here - finally - evenings are getting easier. C is going to sleep at around 8.30-8.45, and is even occasionally persuadable to stay in bed while I go downstairs and do chores. It feels like oceans of wonderful time to myself after the past few months of dealing with her till 9.30 or 10.

On pain relief, I am much more 'whatever's right for that particular birth' now than I was before having kids! I went into the first birth thinking I was keeping an open mind, but really was secretly thinking, well, I have done all this research, all these hypnotherapy CDs, martial artist (yes I was!) and used to managing pain, I will probably be able to avoid pain relief and interventions. 25 hours and vomiting agonies later, the epidural was the most blissful relief I have ever experienced. 9 lb 15 baby, badly positioned, back to back. I was also hugely grateful for a couple of doses of Meptid along the way too. So I went into Caitlin's birth completely prepared to have any pain relief necessary - totally didn't expect to be able to get through it on G&A and Tens in 5 hours! I am just enormously grateful that all these possibilities are available.

oh and Dewin, the hypnobirthing did help enormously both times; I still use the techniques whenever I have to deal with anything painful and it really did help me feel more in control. I used the Natal Hypnotherapy CDs and they were fantastic to listen to in late pregnancy when sleep became a phantom! I do recommend it, even if you're firmly epidural-inclined, it would help you to feel in control through those first bits at home.

Quick sneaky post cos I'm at work and should be, well, er, working!

Keepcalm, PT starts on Sunday as we're going to London by train on Saturday so thought probably not a good day to start!

I'm also a huge admirer of those who can do hypnobirthing, but I had a fantastic birth experience with an epidural with M - four hours start to finish, just dh and the MW in the room. Special memories . I can't do pain I'm afraid!

Hi to everyone else .

Knitting thanks for that. I think there's quite a negative attitude to epidurals and I wouldn't have had a baby at all if I had to do the full on pain thing!

Also, one point from my (one - for now!) birth story. We need to be very careful about making claims about epidurals affecting breastfeeding/baby health afterwards/whatever.
Say I had done hypnobirthing and breezed through the labour with the occasional toke of G&A. Well, my placenta didn't come out, and had to be removed in theatre, and that was done with an epidural (a mega one, full spinal block). Completely and utterly unavoidable. So I could have had a fully natural childbirth, but then had an epidural (and incidentally, they wouldn't dream of undertaking the manual removal procedure with gas&air or careful breathing, not in the situation I was in). So even if I had had a natural labour, I would still be a person who could be made to feel guilty about the epidural, despite it being unavoidable and not a choice.

Sorry, had to say my piece - I will not be made to feel guilty about my epidural!

I had a very similar experience to keepcalm's friend with A's birth - had read up on everything, totally prepared for natural birth, etc and exp huge trauma/guilt after my near-c section ending to it all.

However, the birth debrief at hospital enabled me to be completely at peace with my choice of epidural for M's birth and it was wonderful .

dewin I also had an epidural first time round, and it was marvellous. I agree that no-one should be made to feel guilty about the birth they end up having, through choice or not.

I didn't have an epidural with D, this may or may not have had something to do with the fact that on the way into the labour suite the anaesthetist was standing at the nurses station and gave me a wave and a hello - it wa a chap from my year at medical school. A lovely chap and an excellent doctor I'm sure, but I definitely had at the back of my mind that I wasn't that keen on sharing my labour with him! I am not sure if my medical background makes me more accepting of medicalized things as they are less 'alien' to me, but I was certainly in the 'you don't get a badge for being brave' camp with keepcalm camp must be in Scotland!

systems hooray for evenings and also, well put. You are my newly nominated Voice Of Reason in the absence of sybil who I haven't seen for a while! Where are you sybil?

In other news, D is officially teeny tiny. 2nd centile today at her 12 week weigh in and vaccination combo. she's only 9lb 10oz. There was a 5 week old baby in seeing the health visitor as well, and she weighed more than my skinny malinksy. I'm not particularly concerned as yet, will weigh her in a fortnight and then again at her next jabs and see where we are then. She was due a feed, I always think that that could be 4 or 5 oz in her tummy! She is a lovely contented wee thing though and so smiley. She has, however, got quite extensive cradle cap, or as C likes to say "Mummy, Dorothy has bogies on her head" - from the mouths of babes eh!

So at 2.45 I got a call from home. Dp had nipped upstairs to get C some socks, ready for the school run. So we're talking, what, one minute? While he was up there she had carried a step into the dining room and used it to climb up into my writing desk and take out the 6 tubs of glitter which were hidden at the back - well out of her reach, I thought - and emptied them all over the floor. And herself. And ... well everywhere really. Even dp was covered in glitter for the school run. Fortunately he at least had the presence of mind to take some good photos! Apparently he came down and stood there, stunned, and she grinned up at him (with sparkly teeth) and said, "Daddy, do you like my picture?"

No one should feel guilty about having an epidural - I wanted one when I was having Daniel! My cousin had a very similar situation to what you describe Dewin - she had a natural birth but a 3rd degree tear and then had to have a spinal block to be stitched. But she didn't see the spinal as part of the birth. She has had a few problems with BFing but I think that is more to do with the fact that she couldn't cope with the baby not sleeping at night so gave her formula. It worked so well (she slept) that she started giving her a bottle (or two) every day. That was a couple of weeks ago and not heard from her since so not sure how things are going now. Abdn made a good point on my FB that it could be that difficult labours mean more epidurals and it is that which causes more problems with BFing/recovery. Plus problems with BFing can be because of lots of reasons. So any studies which show epidurals increase BFing problems have to be taken with a pinch of salt anyway, but that is what studies have shown. They haven't shown any impact on baby health AFAIK and in fact it's widely accepted that epiduals do not affect the baby (IIRC).

Biscuits, did the HV give you any hassle about D's weight? Are you happy with how the feeding is going? Esther dropped off the bottom of the weight chart (even when it was adjusted for prem) and I was under immense pressure to top up. But as long as she always gained something and seemed happy then I was happy.

omg Systems!! What is she like? What a character

Dewin, are there some horror stories then re childbirth in medieval Britain?

I know neenz, I'm still chuckling at the thought of my slightly sociopathic other half stood in the playground twinkling gently in the light

There really is glitter absolutely everywhere in the house though, I think there will be for months. I think I am going to call it the 'glintzident'. Back to glitter glue in future - lesson learned!

systems! Although, if my DH was going upstairs to find some socks for S, it would for some reason take him about 10 minutes . You have to laugh sometimes!

Neenz - you're right, no-one should be made to feel guilty if they have an epidural or for any other birth choice for that matter. The problem is though that some people/websites/midwives/nct teachers or whatever see epidurals/drugs etc as failure and have an attitude that there must be something wrong with you if you don't at least try and have a natural childbirth. My first midwife couldn't hide her scorn when she thought I couldn't cope with the pain. Someone I know recently posted on fb with huge proclamation that her sister had given birth to a large baby with no pain relief and how amazing that was. I was pretty offended by the opinion that a drug free birth makes you more special. Any woman that gives birth, no matter how she does it, has done something pretty amazing imo. It's not a competition. We should respect each other's choices, even if they're not the choices we would willingly make ourselves.

Sorry, am sounding a bit ranty - not aimed at anyone here, just things that have annoyed me elsewhere! I'm only getting embroiled in birth chat to distract me from my assignment so on that note...

Oh, and Biscuits - I loved the bogies story!

Oh, and one last thing (back to potty training) - I saw the nursery woman today, who was falling over herself with praise about how well S was doing. I nodded and smiled with good grace while inwardly saying 'yeah, put that in your pipe and smoke it' (or words to that effect).

KeepCalm that was a lovely post about epidurals.
And a fabulous one on the potty training! How on earth did you keep your mouth shut? (I guess the moral high ground is a lovely place to be!)

Neenz no horror stories as such - just a fact. Natural childbirth in the middle ages = 1 in 4 women died. So getting pg would have = get your stuff in order, you might not make it. Explains the massive cult of the Virgin Mary (to ease labour and guarantee survival; your only epidural!!). Also explains baptisms being big events, although infant mortality was very high.

It didn't get any better for a very long time though. My great great grandmother died in childbirth, at 21; second baby (first baby died). Mind you, on Monday I'm having coffee with a friend whose baby girl was stillborn (41 weeks) in the summer.

Neenz - no, no hassle - sometimes it helps being a Dr! She's feeding well, lots if wet/dirt nappies so i'm not unduly worried. haven't broached the subject of a bottle with D yet, never mind formula. It was such a battle with C that I've put off even trying any EBM so no top ups here. C is a lightweight too so I think I just breed them that way. My gp and hv are generally pretty ace though, I registered with them years ago after she was my tutor at medical school. The hv is a bit alternative for my taste at times, and her advice on trying to get C to drink from a bottle was ridiculous (mustard on the nipples anyone?) But she is great with babies and I think a good judge of when a baby is well.

systems loving the glintzident!

dewin there are no words when things like that happen.

keepcalm yay for S and his success - in your face nursery woman!

Hi! I'm pro-epidural after ds1's birth and I really did feel a bit crap for needing one. Now that I've had an easy birth with ds2 (dewin take note - I didn't have time for an epidural!) it actually makes me mad that the NCT sets women up to fail and doesn't acknowledge how varied birth experiences can be. Of course it's nicer without an epidural if it's a quick enough birth, it was great to have a shower after for instance, but that was luck not any pain threshold on my part.

It worries me that the one woman I know who wants to retrain as s midwife had two very easy births. She thinks birth is a magical empowering experience whereas with ds1 I found i was patronised, belittled, and ended up too exhausted to hold him when he was born because I'd been denied pain relief for so long. I think I was very lucky to just end up with insomnia rather than full blown PND.

I think there's a real place for medicalising births to prevent traumatising mothers if hypnobirthing etc isn't enough. I worry that our cult of natural birth in a time of cost cutting will take away options from us and lead to more PND etc.

Whew! I need to shower and get ready for the school run. Yeah for potty training successes and love the glitter story. Where's deb? And has anyone spoken with Amber? I'm guessing she's just way too busy and exhausted to post but id love news.

P.s. Any link between morphine etc and lower bfing rates? It made ds1 very sleepy after birth (and didn't take away the pain for me but made it harder for me to cope because I felt disconnected with reality)?

Good post Abdn!
I actually don't understand how an epidural can affect breastfeeding actually. Doesn't make sense somehow. So I'm dubious - anybody got any links to these studies?

On missing people - Sybil, and also where's Rolf? There's a few absences here!

I saw Amber last week - this week she's between nannies, the babies have colds and aren't sleeping, and she's pretty desperate.

Just listened to your clip Neenz - very good . Dr J sounded v sceptical though!

Keepcalm I got the book this morning. Thanks!

I am around, just not as much as normal. I have become slightly fixated with the kindle dh got me for christmas so previous mn time has been greatly reduced. I will try to be better though!

I had an epidural with my first birth. I think they are truely fabulous things and I laugh in the face of anyone who would try to make me think I should feel guilty about it. But then, I don't believe anyone should ever feel guilty about any birth - we all do the very best we can with the birth we are given. Getting to the end is the only thing that matters.

I love the glitter story. I do think glitter may be the devils work though. The previous owners of my house have a 'fantasy' theme going on the downstairs loo (a dragon mural on the wall, co-ordinating spray painted walls, a metal and glass bespoke fairy cupboard door - its very expensive but bizarre) anyway, as part of this whole theme they decided it would be a good idea to glitter the wood work so it twinkles as you tinkle. Everytime I look at it I think, 'that's going to be a bugger to paint over'