Only 18 incompetent teachers sacked in 40 years

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news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/10464617.stm

That is totally unacceptable. We have been putting teachers before children for too long when it comes to teaching standards. Simultaneously we have been putting the "rights" of children ahead of the teachers' ability to maintain discipline.

Thankfully academies and free schools will break the stranglehold of the teaching unions and local education authorities, and introduce real competition and accountability into the state school system.

I once arrived to meet my grandfather in hospital to find that he was lying on the floor sobbing having wet himself while nurses sat at a desk nearby laughing over cups of tea.

I would like to see them sacked, and I come from a family with a strong tradition of nursing.

Working in the public sector does not make you immune from being crap.

Agree Daisy - I work in the NHS, and am appalled at the lack of professionalism that I see amongst some staff members. There's really very little that can be done, as the unions are so strong. Extra 'support' is offered, performance is tracked, but unless they do something extreme, they can (and do) sail on for years.

I've also seen some awful teachers, again protected by their unions, and in one case is a union rep, and they basically stick 2 fingers up at the system. Bring in extra support when needed by all means, but when performance does not improve then ask them to shut the door on the way out rather than promote them out of their traching posts.

teaching posts

In real life Giddy I agree with you, when people ask what I do for a living they tend to go pale and ask how on earth I cope. That may be because I am quite small and softly spoken but I find my job much easier than people's perception. I am paid to talk to kids who are usually lovely and fascinating about a subject I love. I then get to read what they have written - which is usually interesting and sometimes amusing. I then get paid relatively well, good pension and fab holidays.

You come one here however and every week there is a thread moaning about teachers and their gold plated pensions for an easy life. Now although I don;t think I have it hard, I don't think I have an "easy life"

However I don't see, in the main, that teachers are demoralised. We all have our moments - ( I have had one this week because my husband was moaning about the hours I work so I had to get up at half five this morning to get in a few hours before the family get up ) But generally we are a happy lot who know we are lucky to be doing something we love.

Workload is off the scale in short bursts , during term time an 80 hour week is not unusual. But I do fuck all in the holidays. Children are not hooligans and can be disciplined, those that can't the average classroom teacher does not have to deal with for too long. I have been accused of things I did not do. I was backed by my head and the union and learned from the experience.

of course there are bad nurses, but these hospital scandals we have read about were due to the management. They were aware of the problems, they are paid more than the Prime Minister to sort these problems out. Instead of blaming these managers they will start saying that nurses are lazy and incompetent and they will start making cuts and sacking nurses, and they won't be replacing them, which will just worsen the service to the public. The people who have allowed the ethos and standards in our hospitals to deteriorate are the management.

Spot on, Riven

Claig - not true in every case. There are simply poorly performinng nurses just as in other sectors, and it's naive to blame it all on management or to think otherwise

daisymiller, I don't think anyone is saying teaching is easy- far from it.

I worked as an LSA in a really rough High school, in a grammar area. We had some absolutely inspiring teachers who were getting some very unengaged pupils interested in their subject.

We also had 2 (off hand) absolutely dreadful teachers. I dreaded their lessons, never mind the kids. One, an English teacher used to rant and rave, tell them they were lucky to be getting an education , give them worksheets then sit at the front reading his book.

The final term of Y11, the friends of my named student were getting so worried that they hadn't been prepared properly for their exams that I put some revision notes together myself, and we took to having our own little revision/ teaching session in the lesson in our little corner. The rest of the class talked amongst themselves and threw spit bombs.. My little few improved on their expected results by at least one grade each, but no thanks to their useless teacher. He got a promotion to a girl's school in an even rougher area . We were glad to see the back of him.

Everybody knew he was useless, and I wasn't the only LSA to go into his lessons, but there is nothing you can do.

We also had a chemistry teacher they ran rings round who was very similar. Every one of his lessons things got broken.

yes it is the management's job to get rid of poor nurses, I agree with that. Management is in charge of the ship and it is their responsibility to see that everything is running smoothly. If they are not doing it, it is a dereliction of duty. I don't know how strong the health unions are, but we have seen how neutered the unions now are in general, so I would have thought that the management would still be able to operate a tight ship.

Who provides the career guidance for teachers?

I work for a large organisation so my line manager helps me plan my career so that it may go in many directions away from the department I am in now.

Are teachers getting the same sort of guidance? Is this some of the problem? That teachers dont always get the advice on how to develop their careers so get stuck in roles they arent suited for.

I think we have become too soft on failure in this country generally.

In banks, people got bonus structures with perverse incentives to run up risks, but they did not pay the price when the risks went bad.

Until recently shareholders in many private companies have been very lax in policing bad takeover deals and executive pay structures.

In the public sector it is near-impossible to get fired, because of the iron grip of the unions.

We have tolerated failure throughout society for too long. Failure should be appropriately punished, just as success should be appropriately rewarded. It is part of the fabric of the social contract.

Extremely pernicious is the rise of the quangocracy and managerial class. Also blurry regulators and a profusion of rules and guidelines, which encourage ticking boxes over vocational experience. Poor command structures too - if it is unclear who is responsible for what (sometimes deliberately so), it is easy to play pass the parcel with the blame.

"Failure should be appropriately punished, just as success should be appropriately rewarded."

exactly right, and the people have made a start by kicking the socialists out and bringing the coalition in.

I just wish there was less emphasis on "how good their degree is and how good they are at the subject they're teaching".....and more on how WELL they can teach.

I just thank gawd that my "brilliant" maths teacher with his amazing ability at the subject and wonderful list of maths qualifications after he name has now retired and no more children will be sat there in her class going

"wow that's really clever.........but I don't understand it"

Yes she had every thing on paper that you could possibly want , the degree (and Phd), incredible mathematician - but she couldn't teach it for toffee.

I actually had a few teachers like that when I was at school, thankfully she was by far the worst, but others weren't good teachers - just good at their own subject.

"her" name - not his - she was definitely a woman, and she was French and could fly a plane, and once broke a leg ski-ing.....and that's about I learned from her

But you can have your first and be a great classroom practioner

you can - but it doesn't guarantee that you're going to be good at it.

Likewise not having quite got your first doesn't mean you can't teach.

There's a heck of a lot more to teaching than how "good" you are at a subject imo

Yes there is, but I think that is part of it. I want my daughter's teachers to have excellent degrees in a relevant subject and be great classroom practitioners. This is vital in an 11-18 school. I teach students who will go onto Oxbridge or equivalent in my subject, the fact I have already been there inspires them and
means I can meet their needs.

Tut at daisymiller

I agree with T&F - up to a point. There was a PhD on my course who failed his teaching practice because he couldn't manage a class.

But I also work with one teacher whose subject knowledge is lamentably weak. She has a 2.1 though apparently, which I find astonishing.

You need a certain level of competency in both TBH.

I think a 2:1 is good enough for teaching to be honest, is a 2:1 not the most common grade? If so it is probably the one that is most common in teaching.

I don't see how you can work it that all teachers have excellent degrees and higher degrees. There isn't enough competition or enough remuneration.

I am astonished that schools can get lambasted for dumbing down, yet people like my colleagure are able to leave university with a "good" degree and lack a good understanding of some fairly fundamental concepts.

DH asks questions that test what he calls "common sense engineering" in his interviews for graduates. I can see why.

Are you saying that all teachers should have to have a first class degree? I think that's both unreasonable and unworkable TBH.

Opps - misread the post

Sack me now!!