Fewer Police?

[Chil1234]

Doyenne of the Left, Polly Toynbee, was suggesting in yesterday's Grauniad that it was Time To Get Realistic On Crime Budget In her view, the police and criminal justice system is ridiculously overfunded and increased police numbers and massive prison population haven't materially contributed to either a reduction in crime or public perception of crime. It's not a point of view you see very often and the main proponent of root and branch change - which she supports - is Ken Clarke.

When 25% public funding reductions are in the offing, sounds like the police should not expect to retain their 'sacred cow' status

Disagree with Folly Toynbee. The police need more funding, because when times get tough there will be more crime. Privileged, sheltered champagne socialist media luvvies like her don't care about working class communities who have to live on crime-ridden council estates, where anti-social behaviour blights lives. She probably wouldn't care if crime figures increased. That way she could carry on pontificating in the Guardian, scoring points over the Tories, rather than having the interests of the people at heart.

Well I am married to a police officer. He works on average a 60hr week. He gets paid for 37 of those hours. No overtime. Technically he should get time off in lieu. There is no cover as they are short staffed so he doesn't get the time off in lieu. He has had his last 5 days off cancelled due to court appearances. He is occasionally the only on duty police officer in the entire city. On a Friday and Saturday night there are only enough police to cover the crime hotspots. There are no police officers to spare. They cannot afford new uniform at the moment and dh's trousers are falling apart.

The problem? There is no money for recruitment or running the constabulary they have. There have been no new police officers in our constabulary for 18 months. There are people leaving/retiring/sick each week. If it's this bad now, any cuts will exacerbate a huge shortage.

OT slightly, the prison population could be reduced by increasing the number of community sentences imo. Stats show that reoffending rates are around 75% I think for those on short custodial sentences. Community sentences for equivalent lengths/severity of crime show only a 35% reoffending rate. But we have a problem with people thinking a non custodial sentence means being 'let off'. It isn't. It quite well embodies the rehabilitative status of our justice system.

I can't believe I am writing this, but I agree with Polly Toynbee.

Police numbers aren't the issue. How many police are on the street is the issue.

I think there should be a 10%-15% cut in overall police numbers, matched by cutting out as much bureaucracy as possible.

And very short sentences (a month or so) are pointless. If a crime is bad enough for you to go to prison, then it is bad enough for the sentence to be at least 3 months in my opinion. I thought Nick Clegg was sound on the policy, but awful on the politics, when he brought this up in one of the debates.

I hope the coalition follows through with the Tory proposal to base the incentive structures for prison governors and probation officers on the recidivism rate of prisoners in their care. Stopping re-offending effecively is the best way to reduce crime.

"sound on the policy, but awful on the politics"

how do you mean?

(completely agree about the "bed and breakfast crime schools" as I think he phrased it...)

I think ShowofHands has highlighted how overworked and understaffed the police are. We also know that during recessions when times get tough, more people will turn to crime. Therefore the police are a priority and should not be cut.

vesela I mean precisely what I said

The fact that short prison sentences don't work isn't easily explainable in a highly charged political environment.

I would prefer much longer sentences for serious crimes, and much less leniency for repeat offending. But short sentences are a mishmash.

Prison is for many things.

Most important, to me, is physically incarcerating people who would otherwise be a menace to society. Simply keeping them off the streets is good.

Second, punishment. That is why I believe giving Sky TV to prisoners is misguided. Prison life must be hard.

Third, rehabilitation. This is where we fail hugely. Prisons become universities of crime. So many prisoners can't read or write. So many prisoners get addicted to harder drugs in prison. This is where short prison sentences fail.

I think the policy makers are ignoring the elephant in the room. Once you have a prison record, it is extremely difficult to find employment. That needs to be addressed.

I don't really care about rehabilitating murderers and paedophiles.

If anyone has a life sentence then they should die in prison. Better that they just stay off our streets.

The main concern for such people is to ensure that they keep order within prison. As long as they have a basic (and I mean very basic) standard of living I don't really care about their conditions.

But claig you are right. Why would any employer in their right mind employ someone who has a conviction for medium-severity crimes like burglary?

That's why we need much more charity involvement in prisons. Charities are the best people for dealing with rehabilitation.

Thanks, longfingernails.

Nothing's easily explainable when you're held hostage by Labour in a highly-charged political environment...

hence we have ringfencing on NHS spending which *** Burnham has the cheek to criticise.

I have heard (from a police officer friend) that it is not possible to make police redundant (they have sworn allegiance to the crown and only the Queen could sack them). I was surprised, but he is quite high-ranking, so I believe him.

So fewer police can only be achieved through 'natural wastage' - and it doesn't necessarily mean that the good ones stay, does it.

I have a huge amount of respect for all the policemen and women I know - I think they do a very difficult job. I do think, however, that their very generous pension scheme may be a cost cutting target (and could be reduced and still be very generous).

I have tremendous respect for the rank-and-file but the leadership of the police in recent years has been woeful.

Sir Ian Blair typified the mentality. Totally authoritarian, gung-ho about ID cards and 90 days detention, a culture of secrecy and intimidation, and obsessed with targets over outcomes.

ACPO is surely one of the most invidious organisations ever in this country. It is a private company, not even covered by Freedom of Information legislation - but it makes great swathes of public policy. It's not even a proper quango.

Sorry, I meant Lord Ian Blair of course.

Gordon Brown, in his infinite wisdom, decided that the idiot deserved a peerage.

The furore about police pensions does annoy me rather. DH pays 11% of his pay into the pension scheme. He is contractually bound to do that for 35 years. I think 35 years of 11% is earning his pension actually.

DH just arrived home. Actually he pays 12%. It's a contributory pension.

35 years? Has it changed recently? I thought it was 30 years - the first 20 accrue 1/60 per year and the next 10 accrue 2/60 per year.

And I know it is a contributory pension, and I do believe they earn it, but I don't think everyone grasps quite how valuable it is. Someone putting 12% into a private pension every year for 35 years could expect to retire on 37% of their income, rather than 66% that a policeman will.

Police officers never live very long after they have retired though compared to other professions so they claim less of a pension...I think it is earned.

well said longfingernails

Yes dh's is definitely 35yrs, same for all of his colleagues. Been 35yrs for several years now. DH will reach retirement age at 63.

And you know what, he works above and beyond what he is paid for every day. He doesn't get overtime pay. He doesn't get bank holidays off or bank holiday pay, no public holidays off. He works Christmas Day, NYE, he works all night out on the streets. He gets called in on his days off all the time. He gets spat at, punched, kicked, abused. He goes to work every day and doesn't know the level of risk he will be exposed to. He will have earned it.

There was discussion recently on FiveLive about allowing the police on the beat much more flexibility to dish out warnings rather than be forced into tracking targets and taking someone back to the station with all the paperwork that goes with it.

One sergeant was saying that the police don't want to give youngsters a criminal record before they have reached an age to get a job as it puts such a blight on their prospects even if the offence was relatively minor. So I guess many police would prefer this flexibility.

As for any suggestion of lower police numbers, I think that was mentioned in PMQ on Wednesday when DC said there would be no desire to reduce numbers of police - perhaps the reason they named magistrates courts and some county courts as areas where savings could be made under the 'police and justice' umbrella.

Certainly when one hears about gym and Sky TV in prisons it sounds like somewhere that is not such a 'penalty' after all. Let them read newspapers and not have TV at all, perhaps, and the papers can be paid for out of the 'income' from the work that is done.

However, while it is easy to suggest taking away Sky, my belief is that prison officers would face even more violence and stress without.

LongFingerNails i suspect you think LORD CASHcroft deserved a peerage hmmmm? Yes Tony Blair granted him it but only after Cashcroft and Billy Liar Hague lieeed through their teeth about his UK residential status. SCAMeron too knew about this of course he did..all the while accepting his election campaign funding. YES Labour had non-dom investment as well but at Least theirs were transparent. Hey CASHcroft..dont BELIZE the hype.

Also talking of the police can someone phone them...there are a bunch of THIEVES in NO10 Downing street and Parliament right now.

Never thought I'd see the words 'sensible' and 'Ken Clarke' in the same sentence of an article by Polly Toynbee

LisaT06 some excellent jokes in there, particularly Tony Blair.

Let's not forget that not everyone in prison is a murderer. Some of them are pensioners who haven't paid council tax or the TV licence, and some are people who have committed minor crimes. There is no need to deprive these prisoners of TV in an attempt to play to the mob outside who are screaming for blood.

Well, claig, let's be sure it's just Freeview then, not pumping up BSkyB's profits, and communal TV so they can decide on which channel to watch by voting (seeing as there are some vaguely political ideas here)