im so anxious about threats to cut ctc...

[em83]

god i feel so depressed about the threatened cut to ctc, i have been following the news religiously about this new emergency budget, and have just read an updat which was posted tonigha 22.10 which states that incomes £30.000 or over will not be entitled to ctc

im so pissed off with this and feel so anxious

Ronshar My mum only had 2 children because my dad was a twat and she didn't want to have sex with him anymore. My cousin only has 1 child as he was a difficult sleeper and her hubby didn't want a newborn messing things up even further. I have 4 kids as I love kids and offer them a good upbringing. My cousin does not believe she has 'limited' herself to 1 so I can have 4.

Boiledegg1 I assume you are replying to my post as I am the only 1 who put a big figure. Out CTC is made up with extra for a 'severly disabled child'
If DS wasn't disabled then We would not be able to claim the extra disability element but then we wouldn't have to pay out so much on special diets, safety equipment and replacing items he has broken.

Yes WTC/CTC is a lifeline and many can not survive without it but there is no other viable option

Debs, I am not sure what you mean. I didnt say that women limit themselves so others can have more.
Your cousin chose to have one, you chose to have four.
I did say why should those who chose to have none or small families subsidise those who chose to have big families.
Different thing.
In my brain anyway but that isnt always the most reliable gauge.

Fontella. It sounds like you should be really proud of what you have achieved.
You could have sat back and not worked at all and just held out your hand. But you didnt.
You still are not.
I bet your children are very proud of you as their mother.

.....Thankyou Ronshar. I am now bawling like a baby after reading your post. It just all gets too much sometimes. I can't believe some of the holier than thou comments on this thread - some people just don't have a clue - because luckily for them they have never been where I, and many others find ourselves.

Thanks for clarifying Debs and I hope I didn't offend you.

I don't really understand the ins and outs of this, but I feel we should live in a society where someone working full-time in minimum wage should be able to have kids and exist above the poverty line. AFAIK this is not the case.

FWIW I went ahead and had DD (currently 7wks) with the full knowledge that I couldn't afford her. Old fashioned I know but was for me a biological necessity.

DP is self-employed and really struggling, I was a youth worker on 14K. We both work vv hard doing jobs that make the world a better place - its a bit harsh to say we can't have kids.

I applied for CB 3 days after I got DD home, I feel no guilt I have always worked hard and paid taxes. And it doesn't go towards flat screen tvs, it goes towards food bought at Asda not Waitrose.

But it is true that some people do use tax credits to fund a lifestyle, just as others depend on credits to survive. The Government is trying to ensure that only those in genuine need receive tax credits and that is how it should be.

My manager who earns £45,000 a year was sat next to me filling in his tax credits renewal form. He has 2 children both at school, so no childcare costs, has just bought a new car, is back from a 2 week break in France and his wife works. Why the hell should he be entitled to benefits?

HOW are you going to distinguish between a genuine need and a 'lifestyle choice'??

You can't, which means thousands of not quite vulnerable enough familes are going to suffer.

I mean, we are on 21k, which is not a whole lot of money for 6, but we are ok. However we are HA, so low rent. A family on the same that rents for £700 plus, would need the tax credits. Same with people who have childcare costs.

What would you do, interview everybody and see if they were just taking the piss, or not? That would cost more than it gives out!

'If you are working you will in most jobs be getting payrises/promotions so over the years your salary would go up and you won't need additional support.'

for more and more jobs that are available out there, this is no longer the case.

"chil great site, but i dont see how they take childcare into consideration ??"

It's very simple. Look for the question 'for how many children do you pay for childcare?' and put the appropriate number next to it. Then you get a box 'On average how much do you spend each week on childcare?'

Then you fill in 'yearly household income before tax'... and you get an instant calculation. If it doesn't match what you've been getting (and if you haven't told the CTC people that you pay childcare there's a good chance that it won't) then you need to tell them straight away.

Few people get loads of tax breaks. The guy on over £45K a year probably gets the £10 a week with 2 kids. Only those on very low incomes, or with many children and low-mid incomes get alot.

For those who think cutting TC are a good idea, do you think they should be scrapped altogether or just for a certain income bracket? Is someone more worthy of them earning 16K than 24K for example...

Few people get loads of tax credits that should say

There has been a lot of work done on how much money people realistically need to have a decent standard of living. I'm thinking in particular of the Joseph Rowntree foundation who published research on what constitutes a luxury item (eg games console, 42 inch tv)versus essential household items (e.g washing machine).

I don't think people should be using tax credits to fund holidays (and I do know people who do this) but that's my opinion. I'd rather a single parent struggling to bring up children received enough benefits to have a decent standard of living.

Stretch how do you know it hasn't?

But that's the point, if life 'takes you up the arse' as you so eloquently put it, then you use benefits to help you out of that situation.

You don't use them as a long term means to live by.

The whole idea behind tax credits was to help people on benefits back into work. The same with the minimum wage.

I personally believe that it is the responsiblility of government to ensure that the people in the country have the opportunity to provide for their families and a decent standard of living. What else are they for?

My DH earns £30k, I'm a SAHM, so we'll no doubt lose our CTC of £40 a month. I can live with that. We're used to scraping by. No we don't have any of the things you've listed, ronshar, other than 2 cars, both over 10 years old. My DH needs his for work, it's part of his job to travel from site to site. I need my car to get to hospital appointments, we don't live on a bus route. Even if I walked the 20 minutes to the nearest bus stop it would still cost me over £10 a week in bus fares, just to get to hospital.

What really pisses me off with all the cuts that are being touted is that they disproportionately affect the working poor with children. I don't necessarily include our family in that, we're okay, for now.

I agree that there are plenty of people exploiting the system. That has always been the case and if this government can eradicate then, then all the better. Incredulous to hear that someone on £45,000 a year gets TC?

My income is a fraction of that and I know for example, that I qualify for help with my rent and council tax but I just can't bring myself to go and claim for it. It feels like I've failed. The thought of filling out the forms, going to the rates office - I just can't face it. My kids have also never had free school meals or any of that, and I was quite shocked one day at the school gates when a teacher asked the group of parents waiting, who claimed free school meals (as she had some paperwork to hand out) and a whole bunch of women put their hands up. Women who I know are miles better off than I am.

At least with TC you are able to retain a bit of dignity. I am scrupulously honest when supplying details of my self-employed income, never 'estimate' as you are allowed to do, but always do my accounts before supplying my income figure so I know it's accurate and there is no danger of over/under payment. They then advise me of what I will receive - they tell me.

Although it can still be considered 'benefits' it does at least allow me to retain a bit of self respect. I am working, but my income at the moment isn't enough for us to survive. TC makes survival possible.

We don't expect to get much help from the government! I mean, I've only worked for 10 years paying tax and national insurance so other people can claim, so I'll just go on Maternity leave for a year and get my minimum SMP. DH and I have saved for about 3 years putting money aside so we can pay the mortgage when we have a child. I don't work in public service so get the minimum SMP, I have a friend who works for the government and she'll get 6 months full pay, but that's by the by!

I'll then go back to work after a year and start paying tax again, I sincerely hope some of you can enjoy my hard work

But you know what, I wouldn't have it any other way because I come from a hard working family, have been taught that I am not owed anything and that you need to work hard in this life to support your self and your family. Hopefully my child will feel the same!

notjustapuppymum

You CHOSE to have children, you CHOSE the level of your mortgage, you CHOSE what career paths to take...

Lots of people don't start out at the same level as everybody else though. They have limited choices. They come from sink estates or met someone that screwed their life up, got into debt etc..

What would happen if your partner left you? Yes, you would have a job, but possibly not one that meets the level of income you would be able to live on. Then you would have to top up your income with tax credits, and that is what tax credits are really, top ups to help people with the cost of children. Children, that if the majority of people get the chance, will bring up to become decent, tax paying, members of society.

@wubblybbbly. How does bringing down the upper limit for CTC qualification disproportionately affect the working poor? I don't understand that. If anyone is affected by that particular move it's the 'working middle-income-earner' if you can call them that.

The tax credit element of the payout for people in that £30k-ish to £55k bracket is the basic £500-odd per year. That's what will be saved if the ceiling came down as far as £30k and that's what the families would lose. Now £40 a month is not to be sneezed at but neither is it a life or death amount of money to most middle-income families. Whereas if the lower-income family was to lose £40 a month it's potentially a disaster.

So I think any government is going to go for the low-hanging branches first ie. those families on £50k or £40k and say.. 'no more CTC for you, sorry' ... knowing there will not be marches on Downing Street and soup kitchens set up as a result. If they were to wade in and savage the incomes of poor families that would be political suicide.

I'm amazed too that someone on £45,000 can receive tax credits. I'd like to think my manager who receives the £40 a month or whatever it is spends it on his childen eg school trips, outings etc rather than on broadband or meals out. I hate to think of people who can survive very well without tax credits claiming and 'wasting' the money. I know legally they may be entitled, but morally I think it is wrong.

Yes nessmay, I too worked for 20 years before I had my kids paying tax and insurance, and I continue to pay tax. I have worked for myself since the day my kids were born - self employed as there was no childcare where I lived, and no partner or family around to look after the kids or share the burden.

So I got off my arse, and set up my own business and earned my own living working from home. I get no maternity leave, no paid holidays, no sick pay, no pension. If I work, I get paid that's it, and believe me I work. But if the work isn't coming in there's not a hell of a lot I can do about it other than canvass for work and keep everything crossed that things pick up. Oh I know - get a job. Over 50, self employed for 15+ years, 2 kids still in full-time education, no car - I'm a real prospect for an employer. That's why I'm trying to get a teaching qualification by going to college at night - it's the one job I know where I won't be discriminated against because of my age and circumstances.

I've cleaned pub toilets before now, and will do so again if I have to .. but the bottom line is I can't survive without TC and I am not going to be made to feel like a sponger or criminal simply because I am obliged to claim it.

Ronshar I was trying to say that some people limit themselves to 1 or 2 but then don't feel they are subsidising those with 4. There are lots of reasons to stop at 2.
OTOH my BIL does think he is subsidising those on benefits. He earns about 40G when you take into his company car, phone and laptop. They receive the family payment of 10 a week per child. He has boasted many a time that his tax payments a month are more then my DP's wage. Always with a smug 'I am better then you' smile.

Boiledegg you didn't offend me, I'm not ashamed of my 'huge' CTC payment, most of it is to cover our disabled son. It isn't wasted on holidays or flat screens and we don't have expensive vices to pay for.

Fontella, I don't think any reasonable person would think for a milisecond that you were a sponger. I have my own business too and I know the ups and downs of it all. In fact more people with your work ethic is what the country needs to get out of the current mess. The main problem with the tax credit system is that despite all the long forms to be filled in, it cannot discriminate between people like yourself and those that just want to sit back and have funding for a certain lifestyle.

Chil1234 - sadly you do not deduct the cost of childcare from your annual income before tax!

if you earn 24 grand and pay 4 grand in childcare that does not equal a total of 20 grand to declare - it is still 24 grand!

Only time you would deduct childcare from income was if you are in a salary sacrifice scheme and get childcare vouchers from your employer - which is subject to limitations and you then may not qualify for the childcare elemet of ctc!

If you do this you also need to tell tax credits and send in all your proof - wage slips before and after scheme, contract before and after etc....

Making childcare a tax deductible expense - now that's a nice idea...