How do we as a country eliminate 'benefit culture'?

[whomovedmychocolate]

Serious question, not asking for a bunfight but donning teflon knickers nevertheless.

We seem to have got ourselves into a right pickle over this - we have a myriad of benefits - which don't seem to fit together or make logical sense and which seem open ended.

Is this right? Should we say (with obvious exceptions for people who are going to need help forever because of health issues) 'right, we will support you for X months and then you are on your own'?

Should we require people to dispose of any and all assets before providing benefits? This would counter the 'well he has a plasma telly and is receiving JSA' arguments I've heard recently.

What about generations of families who have never worked. What do we do about them then? Do we do intervention stylee retraining for them all, and force them to work?

I'm really interested in the ideas you lot might have because I am finding it very hard to establish the extent of the problem or any solution.

Tocatta, if I were you I would start looking now. Obviously, the number of people looking for jobs is going to increase in the next few months, not only because any possible benefit reductions but because there is a lot of people being made redundant. Unfortunately, new jobs are less and less while there are far more people competing for them.

Regarding the menial works, one thing is that you are willing to do them and the other one is that the employer is interested in giving one of those jobs to you. I'm at the moment in a bad economical situation, with a badly paid part time temporary job. I have not stopped looking for jobs even when I got this one, and the search for it has extended over more than a year. I don't wait for jobs to come, I apply to anything that I think I can do.

Tax credits will sort the chid care issue, they may help in other ways, as long as I found a job. The problem is finding one. I am a former university tutor, and I have applied for jobs related to my expertise and also for cleaning jobs (and everything in between), for "menial" jobs I don't get any replies even when I would be happy to do them. Obviously, I could go and work to the city "next door" but I won't be able to come back in time to pick up DS before the afterschool club close for the day. I cannnot afford the train tickets, unless I get a very good salary, which I am not going to get as I have been out of work or doing "menial" works for years.

So, although I used to defend the point that everybody can find a job provided they are not too fussy, this year has proved me wrong big time.

I don't think that cutting the benefits in any measure is going to solve the problem, it will only make it worse. What we need is for more jobs to be created, the current economical situation, highly discourage that.

The reason why 'workfare' schemes are disastrous is that they are yet another way for greedy corporations to rip off everyone. That's the already low-paid staff they 'let go' in order to replace them with workfare staff they don't have to pay, the workfare staff themselves (paid less than a living wage and treated with contempt as lazy moronic scroungers who have had to be forced to work) and don't forget the taxpayer whose taxes are now funding the corporation's profits.
ANd don't forget that a lot of these 'menial' jobs that alleged benefit scroungers should be forced to take are ones that involve women's work caring jobs, such as looking after the sick, the elderly and small children. What a great idea it is to have the vulnerable cared for by resentful, exploited slave labour.

Posting and running - will catch up later, v interesting - but Lenin did you see that the ONS had some very depressing stats publ yesterday about the efficacy of surestart/early years.

Upshot - on current spending, absolutely no difference made to outcomes. Having been violently against targeting surestart am now coming to believe its our ONLY hope. Even that will only scratch the surface.

DOn't forget your taxes are funding lots of families through several generations of worklessness. It's just that the proper name for these families is not benefit scroungers but 'royalty'.

There definately isnt enough support/phasing of benefits to help you back into work.

I think they should pay JSA for the first month that you get a job, perhaps at a reduced rate of whatever

Otherwise even if you are offered a job, and will get paid at the end of the month then for that first month, when your outgoings are likely to increase (travel to work/poss new clothes) you have a drop in income

The fear of getting into more financial difficulty prob makes people just not want to risk it.

It takes too long to assess claims too, especially housing benefit, some councils have a 4 week turnaround period take 10 weeks to assess the claim.

Who in their right mind is going to take on a job which as standard would have a probationary period when they prob are still recovering the debts and stress from when the claim was first assessed if they know that should the job not work out they will have to go through it all again.

I know someone who has never worked in his life. He lives in an area with lots of jobs, but "working is for suckers". He was given chances to do jobs that were related to things that he really liked, but walked out on the first day (before lunchtime!) because they were "boring".

I was surprised that he had money and wasn't being forced to take a job, but apparently he's now incapable of taking work, because he's on disability allowance (not sure what the official name is now). I was and asked what the disability is - it's depression. I have seen genuine depression at close quarters, and it was nothing like the way that I have seen him behaving. Apparently his form of depression never stops him from doing anything else - just working.

He is making himself unemployable - I certainly wouldn't take him on - so what do we do? Support him until he dies at 80?

And the thing that really makes me is that he is taking money away from the genuinely disabled. There is only so much money in the pot, with people like him draining it, others are left to suffer.

"I think the radical step of no more child benefit after a certain number of kids, and no increase in tax credits after a certain number of kids if you have them whilst on benefit?"

I agree, almost. I think that there should be one allowance of child-related benefits per adult. So in a typical family of mummy & daddy there would be Child Benefit etc for 2 kids and that's it. If they decide to have more kids (or if he goes off and has a second family) then they do it at their expense, not the State's, irrespective of whether they are earning or not. I don't think that there should be one rule for those claiming benefits and a different rule for those working. There should be one rule for all - which would then result in a change in society's behaviour.
In an overpopulated island, in a time when the world is stretched on resources it is ridiculous to 'reward' people for adding to the population crisis.

It will be complicated to organise because there are so many benefits: eg is is easy to say that Child No3 does not get Child Benefit but you would not deny it healthcare, and there are a million shades of grey between those examples. But I think that State should send the message that it is not willing to subsidise people this way anymore, it needs to get people out of the mindset of 'if I have a baby then I'll go up the housing list'.

Our Grandparents' generation had a horror of the shame of claiming benefits but we now seem to think that benefits are a matter of course. We need to change that attitude.

"Tocatta, if I were you I would start looking now"

ermm - what start looking for a job now for ^next (2011) September? In a word - no I'm not - I do browse the jobs fairly regularly. bit for a myriad of reasons that I cba (sorry finally managed to sleep at 5am, and have been on the sofa until 10 minutes ago and had no coffee) I'm not going to start work now. Even if I was offered a job that meant I was comfortably off I coldn't do it.

MrsTittleMouse - people like that would still find a way not to work even if his benefits were taken way.

on route so again brief - but where are the jobs for the long-term unemployed going to come from?

Our Grandparents' generation had a horror of the shame of claiming benefits but we now seem to think that benefits are a matter of course. We need to change that attitude.
Light bulb moment, where has shame gone?
Before our benefits system if your husband didn't get work down the docks then you had to ask the local vicar for money from the parish funds which was like the communities saving/insurance account. Now everything is done facelessly; NI and taxes taken before you see your wage slip and benifits applied for by filling out forms and payments straight into bank accounts etc.
Even in the 1960s visits were made to peoples homes when they applied for or made changes to benefit claims but now you just ring up about changes in circumstances.
Surely by increasing the numbers of the DWPs workforce these home visits can be reinstated (thus reducing the number of people unemployed) a more personal service between claimants and DWP staff would mean fraudulant claims are reduced and help given to those who would like it.
Am I naive?

I agree onebat - benefit scroungers like the one I know are only half the problem.

We now have large areas of the country where there just aren't enough jobs to go around. DH and I are always and when 1000 people are made redundant when a factory/mine/whatever closes and politicians go on about counselling and helping with CVs. If there are only 50 jobs available in that area, it doesn't matter how bloody stellar their CVs are, 950 people are going to be unemployed!

And we can't all move to the South East.

jenroy - part of the problem with the "shame factor" of pre-state benefits was that it meant that many (usually the most vulnerable and needy) went without because they were too ashamed to apply/private to be means tested.

ALl I can say is that in the UK you are VERY lucky you have benefits and help up to your ears and I honestly think that many people just can't be bothered ...well why should they ?
Living in Italy ..child benefit no such thing ! IF at the time of birth you either earnt under a certain limit and had no savings they gave you a one off payment of about £1500. Thats your lot.
Housing benefit ...no such thing. YOu can wait on a list for a 'council' house and wait and wait and wait.
JSA...no such thing.
Unemployment benefit like getting blood out of a stone.
The list is endless......
I am stuck in the middle as I have paid over 20 yrs of NI contributions and I am entitled to nothing living in Italy as they have no dual agreement.( I get a reduced pension if I am lucky ....)
However an Italian going to the UK who has maybe paid few ( or no ) contributions gets anything he is entitled to . I have heard of people saying no point in coming back to Italy as the Uk looks after them better !!!

Our Grandparents were also able to find real jobs in the industries we have lost. The shame factor has gone as so many people now need benefits.

'I do find it astonishing that when the chips are down, even when they aren't, we stand and point the finger at the poorest, most ill-educated and disenfranchised members of society and say that if only they pulled their fingers out everything would be all right.'

There must be a way to discuss what could be done without continuing accusations of 'well, it's just about using the poor as a scapegoat.'

Because that is getting us nowhere.

Not to mention the fact that many of the 'poor' are in work, many full-time.

And many more find taking work too risky because it is true, they are better off on benefits.

I disagree that discussing reform is automatically calling for a return to workhouses.

well said expat.

but I still think it's a waste of time and the "consulting" of the public is a gimmic and they'll do whatever the fck they want..........and leave everyone that isn't a well paid earned fcked

Jump on me now!
So to stop people from relying on benefits we need to increase the number of jobs across all sectors (or reduce the population but that would reduce the amount of consumers and tax payers)
One way to do this would be to employ people to do what machines do now but that would mean that prices rise (because people are more expensive than machines)
So the people who now have better wages than benefits would not be better off because they couldn't afford to buy more stuff.
Also you would have to ban imports of cheaper stuff from abroad.
I reckon we are better off now
(I have one other idea but that would be far too controversial)

I'm not sure I want the shame factor back. I felt quite bad enough when I was made redundant without feeling ashamed of needing benefits.

THEBRIDE (Sorry caps on . )Vocational course/work experience in coming in with the new 14-19 curriculum, especially for the disaffected proportion of the group. Its been phasing in for a while now as I worked with some disaffected lads 3 years ago.

I work with children in care and met a parent a while ago who was telling me she gave up work to have her son. He is now 21 and was in care at 7. The whole extended family have this attitude and although none are the stereotypical 'plasma screen and new car' level it shows how deep that attitude is.These are the families who need to be educated into a want to work attitude. A colleague was telling me about a teenager (19ish) who refused a live in job(+ decent money) doing basic kitchen work despite being homeless as he didn't liek washing up.