am I alone in being very heartened that the alquaida operative is not being deported?

[Heathcliffscathy]

because we absolutely should not deport anyone under any circumstance who we know will be tortured.

a victory for justice and human rights today imo.

I suspect it depends Ooojimaflip if you happen to agree with that particular law or not. Like others on this thread, I think they should be deported, article 3 or not, and I have an inkling this is what the more robust of our European neighbours would do.

I don't hate Human Rights, I just think they seem to apply more to some than others, and that they are used to avoid the consequences of some actions. Expat put it well earlier when she pointed out that Al-Qaeda don't give a shit about our human rights. It's all well and good claiming the moral high ground, like Sophable, but that won't protect you with a little 'I can't get hurt' bubble as others have pointed out having experienced terrorist attacks.

Apart from the fact there is zero evidence these guys are in Al Quaida.

The woman at the centre of the emails (proposed marriage) even gave testimony in court.

But she's probably Osama Bin Laden in disguise right?

...and people don't lie under oath do they?

"Sources told The Daily Telegraph that the arrests of 12 men in the north west of England on Wednesday were linked to a suspected plan to launch a devastating attack this weekend.

"It could have been the next few days and they were talking about 10 days at the outside," one source said. "We had to act." Police are now engaged in a search for an alleged bomb factory.

Daily Mail:

"Senior detectives said they moved quickly following an 'imminent and credible' threat of an atrocity by an Al Qaeda linked group, including the construction of an explosive device, said to be a conventional bomb rather than a 'dirty' bomb incorporating nuclear material.

One officer said: 'These are the most significant terrorism arrests to be made for some time.

'There was information which led us to believe that these men were planning something major.

'It was not clear when or where they would strike but they were collecting material for a large explosion. We are talking about something big.'"

So, apart from the fact that there was no bomb factory. No manuals. No tapes. No plans. There were some emails which could be construed - possibly - to mean something about bombs. (You can read them, they are so sensitive the security services released them to the media).

But then even though there are no bombs and the woman at the centre of all this testified in court...oh no...she could be lying. Yeah she could.

But first all the hang em brigade, where are the bombs? You know, the bomb factory...

Not only this, but this has already gone before a court and been thrown out...

What do you think about the Guilford 4, the Birmingham 6, the Cardiff 3, the Bridgewater Gang, Enghin Raghip, Mark Braithwaite, Winston Silcott, Steven Kizsko...all guilty right?

You can actually see these guys interviewed here:

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2009/dec/04/pakistani-students-arrest-release

The photos uncovered by the police were on Facebook...

Really you lot should be ashamed of yourselves.

I don't feel in the least bit ashamed of myself. They've committed visa fraud.

Off they go.

< I don't hate Human Rights, I just think they seem to apply more to some than others >

But that's the beauty of human rights legislation, they apply to all equaly. No one can say "sorry, no human rights for you, don't like your face". The suspected terrorists can't be sent to a place where they might be tortured, but then nor can you and nor can those you love.

You may think the liklihood of it ever happening to you or some one you care about is non existent but the more human rights are eroded the more likely it is. It starts slowly. First you give up your right not to be sent somewhere else to be tortured, then you give up your right not to be tortured in your own country. I've spent a lot of time in countries where human rights abuses are wide spread. Not the Burmas and North Koreas of the world but places that look like they are free. But where people are careful of what they say and who they say it to because anyone could take it the wrong way.

Yeah they've gone. 10 of them are back in Pakistan. 2 are in the UK. Happens all the time.

But it's nothing to do with terrorism.

Nothing to do with Al-Quaida. Mi5 and the security services fucked up - again - and try and terrorise the UK population to cover their backsides.

And you all fell for it. Again.

What did you do when you heard De Menezes had been killed? Wait until you had all the facts? Or celebrate? After all De Menezes had an out of date visa.

What no bombs Cool? Shiiit, they must have sent them all to Iraq.

Yeah Marilyn Monroe's secret plane took them in league with Elvis who controls all the black helicopters. That's the secret evidence Mi5 can't tell us.

'But that's the beauty of human rights legislation, they apply to all equaly. No one can say "sorry, no human rights for you, don't like your face".' No, they don't apply to all equally; I would argue that Gary McKinnon for instance should not be deported to the US because it infringes his human rights, but for a long time that has been ignored; and yet we are happy to keep Al-Qaeda operatives here.

I would also rather that MI5 fucked up (if they did) on the side of caution and prevention.

But isn't citing Gary McKinnon an argument for more human rights, not less?

Coolfonz, do you think that this sounds like someone weighing up marriage candidates? (OK, I know you've read them, but just putting them up here).

"I saw a slight glimpse of Huma day before yesterday but she was very weak and difficult to convince. She says she is busy with her studies and it will take her long. Nadia is more gorgeous than Huma at the moment and she is easy to befriend? Nadia is crystal clear girl and it won't take long to relate with her."

"You know Gulnaz and Fozia. WOW man. I would love to get them in my friends list but you know I have been thinking about their abilities. Gulnaz sounds ok but she is found [fond] of money. Fozia is some times bull shit. She lets you down sometime."

You really think these sound like actual women?

Scaryteacher - I don't think that it depends what you think of the law. For individuals and maybe some organisations there may be cases made for campaigning, civil disobedience etc. But one organisation that absolutely MUST be held to the letter if the law is government. Otherwise you have tyranny.

let me make this clear - human rights abuses can happen to anyone. there is nothing to stop you, or a member of your family being arrested, held without charge for 42 days and the deported to a country that condones torture. Unless the country you live in doesn't do things like that....

human rights guarantee your rights. if they are ignored, then everyones freedom is at stake.

visa fraud ?! is that a crime worthy of torture? Nothing is.

Human rights apply to all human. Saying they apply to some less than others is close to saying some are less human than others. I am extremely uncomfortable with that.

You don't know that they will be tortured for anything! It's all hypothesis. The authorities said they will supervise the situation.

If they've committed visa fraud I don't want them here. End of. There are enough law-abiding people keen to work and study here.

Vesela - the court thought so, a woman came forward as well.

But secondly, what if they were talking about something else, like trying to outstay their visa, buying weed, nicking cars, wanking off dogs...?

Where do you suddenly go - hmm dodgy letters, they must be al quaida?

No bombs, no manuals, no traces of anything even remotely being explosive - yet Mi5 tell the media there was imminent danger (ie: bombs were ready to go).

Not only that but the guys themselves give interviews in Pakistan, get representation from the Pakistan govt (who are not at one with Al Quaida as you might note) to London. Which is not what people in Al Quadia tend to do you may note.

Yet despite all this, a load of halfwits, still go, oh yeah Alquida operatives. Fucking idiocy.

That people are so ready, against every shred of evidence, to believe the security services, is frightening. People like that have learned nothing from history.

Like I say, what did you do when De Menezes was shot seven times in the head from point blank range while a man sat on his back? Do you even give a shit?

People who give succour to torture, extra judicial police killings and overwhelming security service power should f off to Saudi Arabia or Burma...you'd love it there.

iirc i got absolutely torn to shreds on here for being outraged at his shooting and calling for charges to be brought and accountability right up the food chain in the police.

i think the general consensus (with notable exceptions) was that in the face of terrorist threat they were just doing their job and should be felt sorry for.

i was apparently being disloyal to the police and unpatriotic.

Yeah good, but the title of this post (Al Quaida operative) is just stupid, which I'm sure you aren't.

With De Menezes, we have an execution of a man by the British security services in public. And not a single person is brought to justice over it. Not even disciplined.

Not only that but the jury rejected the police claim they gave a warning but the judge forbade - for no reason - the officers to be tried for perjury.

They got on a carriage, went over to a guy reading a paper, pushed him to the floor, sat on him, shot him seven times in the head, pulping his face, from point blank range.

Imagine if it happened in Iran...

there are plenty of people out there commiting visa fraud for a variety of reasons(in some countries a small element of fraud is the standard route into a work visa..my Taiwan visa for instance...)

it doesn't change the fact that this guy had a legitimate claim to potential torture in Pakistan, which was the grounds of apppeal..

really, are you lot so blind to the potential conequences of the erosion of civil liberities?

I don't see why the DeMenzes case is coming up. If you give people guns at some point they will kill someone they shouldn't. This is why we don't give the Police guns as a matter of course. It was a cock up, nothing sinister about it. Attempting to minimise the scale of the cockup - well that was stupid, and people needed to be sacked for that.

Or is there some idea that someone wanted DeMenzes to be killed for some other reason?

i think it was because someone said that the fact that they'd commited visa fraud made it fine for them to be deported to a country where they may face torture.

De Menezes had overstayed his visa - which did not make it fine for him to be shot. that was the cause of comment.

De Menezes comes up because of the similarities.

1. Security services balls up
2. They leak to the media (man in coat jumps barrier) to cover themselves.
3. At the time it was presented that he was a `terrorist` and folks cheered.
4. Security services escape any condemnation or prosecution.