Lefties 9: This will succeed through its success

[taffetacat]

Is everyone on Twitter now?

Sorry that was very crass - how linguistically brainwashed we are.

animula - did you write the piece on gender politics on the front page of Media Guardian today?

Living wage + massively more wealth distribution than we saw under the last Labour government + a shift in public consciousness that sees paying people off the books becoming as unacceptable as drink driving (!)

Point two worries me - and brings me to my horrible fear that GB was deemed too unacceptably left for the right-wing in this country. But that's my post-Kinnock self's secret, crawling fears rising to the surface again. It used to be an acceptable thought in mainstream politics ... .

taffettacat - no! I'm a lowly housewife in London with no career! But I shall go google if you think I'm going to like it.

Is it going to cheer me up?

(I know it won't - I'm just joking! )

She has indeed ruled herself out gingercat, just hoping she might change her mind!

The living wage thing is interesting, why have a minimum wage that in parts of the country doesn't reflect the living costs? I know regional minimum wages would cause problems and not really sure what the solution is.

I just think that it's all a vicious circle, the minimum wage is too low so we have tax credits/housing benefit to enable people to survive, which is great that these people are supported but it means that the state is subsidises the salaries when in fact the employers should be paying a living wage. The welfare state enable employers to pay less by topping it up but equally if the tax credit system wasn't there people would work for anything.

This is apparently an interesting read on this kind of discussion but I am too tight to buy it although am doing public policy next year at uni so may be able to get my hands on it.

dh says that the dept for children,families & schools has split into education again.So much for joined up working

Ewe - where are you going to do PP? I was looking at doing it. LSE is pricey, isn't it?

Proleworth - I think disseminate your socks off, critical mass of ideas 'n' all.

Taffettacat - I googled the article . at twojobs Teresa with her remarkable shoes. But it was a sobering read, wasn't it?

Prolesworth I know abolishing hereditary peers was a Labour policy, but it was only a dream that anyone in this country will really do it. Sorry, am a bit negative. Was brought up to be fiercely republican.

LeninGrad. Vince Cable is the Business Secretary. (Lord Mandelson)
It is a good job we do not own a lot of properties then, we could never get rid of them. John McCain would be in trouble, if you remember the US elections

Animula - I think you will be shouting yes!yes! on reading it

I can't find it online but then I am hopeless at that - just have paper copy. A few choice quotes from it:

Jean Seaton, media professor/BBC historian
"It was when I threw a shoe at the Today programme one Saturday in the middle of the election that I realised that things had got really bad. Several hours of intelligent politics and not a single female voice...."

Dorothy Byrne, head of news and current affairs C4
"Again and again, I would see some elderly man being interviewed, generally by another elderly man, and exclaim, "I thought he was dead..."

Agree that benefit envy is also scary. As is the whole entitlement thing generally IMO.

I keep reading/hearing things (not necessarily on MN) about entitlement but I'm a bit how the sense of entitlement seems to be just about everywhere.

WARNING - STUPID GENERALISATIONS ABOUT TO FOLLOW.

Seems to me the 'entitlement' sterotype can be applied to all/any section of society, of which we all belong to one, therefore, I'm including myself in this, of course.

1. Rich as fuck, Cameron/Osborne types whose sense of entitlement goes so far that they actually think they are the best people to run the country (OK modern day media has a lot to blame for here too, in that these people actually got elected).

1. The middle classes who think that a 3 bed semi with central heating and constant hot water plus the odd takeaway and a car that starts in the morning are BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS. Mega sense of entitlement cos they work hard and think they deserve their privileged position on the basis of what exactly? (I'm one of you before you get on you're high horse, c'mon we're OK really and I'm betting that being in France where salaries are lower, DH and I earn less than our UK equivalents). We try not to feel entitled but of course we do because of being told all the time that 'we are worth it' and 'doing the right thing'.

1. The non working poor who may not have a substantial current reason to be non working, but probably have historical reasons like being second or third generation unemployed. I think people like this are the least of our worries in terms of actual cash/cost but worrisome because we need to give their kids hope, training and jobs so they can move forward. (tricky one this).

Overall sense though is that apart from the working poor, everybody seems to have a well developed sense of entitlement.

Ok have had a mid week glass of wine that may have led me to speak bullshit so am ready for flaming....

animula - xposts oops

I also enjoyed the comments about Theresa May although I thought the comments about Mrs Duffy were a little trite. Also noteable that the correspondents and presenters are a lot more upbeat than those behind the scenes....wonder why that would be?!

DDS definitely adorable and oh so French and Scottish at the same time (indulgence alert).

"Immigration/benefit stuff is scary but complicated. Shouldn't ever be presented as black and white."

'Twas this that was crass.

Anyway glad to see thread moving agian.

Oh, I don't know, Beachcomber. I agree it doesn't sound lovely (fat and complascent wails coming from the entitled,), but I think people's demands for a comfortable life can sometimes be a wonderful force for change. I think I worry more about the depression of expectations, and how the benefits thing is used to divide people, and pitch people against each other by way of their (perceived) interests. And lastly, I hate the discourse that the life of the unemployed must be reduced to the most joyless existence possible.

What's wrong with thinking that pleasure in this life should be available to all? i certainly wish it for all of the world's population.

Prolesworth - I want to recommend "When the Lights Went Out" to you. It has a slightly dodgy bit at the end, but the majority of the book is a kind of re-vitalisation of a period when wealth distribution was a part of the discussion in mainstream politics. I might post a considered sort of reflection (on the dodgy bit) at a later date ...

I've truly disliked the (re-)appearance of a discourse of "I work hard and earn my high wage. Those who earn less do so because they are implicitly of less value than my good self."

I remember that from the 80s. 'Tis vile. And just fundamentally wrong.

Prolesworth - As Piglet would say "Just so long as we're all making do with less."

A good green agenda will see that "luxuries" aren't rationed simply by cost.

But at least it was much worse in the 80s animula. Policy really was made on the assumption that all you had to do was get on your bike. The idea was that everyone unemployed could rescue themselves by starting a small business and that only lack of gumtion stopped people in former mining villages becoming yuppies. I don't think that attitude persists, than god.

Most true. Eleison.

To quote Smash Hits: "The 80s - not even a nice place to visit."

Agree very much with staus ideas.

Plus I'm just depressed to read of people complaining that 45K doesn't go far these days. We are amongst the richest people in the world with our 45K. What the fuck more do we think we should have exactly?

Of course there are people even richer, but IMO, their riches are not to be aspired to other than for being pleased to be able to contribute to redistribution.

Beachcomber I think the hugely disproportionate inflation of house prices has a lot to do with the "£45K doesn't go far" attitude. It is a very big income indeed, but really doesn't go far any more in terms of the aspiration to own one's own family home (at least in the SE).