Anyone else fearful that the 5% pay cut given to Cabinet ministers will be passed down to all public sector workers?

[JackiePaper]

It's not looking good is it, both me and DH work in the public sector, and if we get 5% pay cuts, NI goes up 1%, Tax credits are cut and VAT increases to 20% i don't actually think we will be able to afford food

My NHS Trust stopped overtime years ago. There used to be a Nurse Bank whereby extra hours worked were paid at slightly less than the f/t hourly rate. Then they scrapped the bank and a private company took over. Now nurses get paid even less and have to do all their own admin (booking shifts on line/submitting time sheets on line) etc. which saves the company loads of money. It also leads to chaos as shifts are double booked due to computer error. When it was set up it was catastrophic. We requested a RMN (trained mental health nurse) and got a midwife I left not long after that so don't know how well it's working now.

NHS here. We've had efficiency savings for the last 5-6 years - there are no more efficiencies to be made that will have any kind of significant impact. We lost 10% from staffing budget last year, have to lose another 10% this year (we haven't had overtime in the dept for some time so this can only be achieved by staffing cuts due to 'natural wastage', recruitment freeze, no maternity cover etc). These are frontline clinical staffing budgets which is having a direct impact on patient care. Waiting times have increased almost 50% over the last year as a direct result of these cuts.

Any future pay cuts will be on top of this, not instead of.

Pay cuts, will always difficult for the individual/family (and me personally!), but they are the tip of the iceberg - the other swingeing cuts that are adversely affecting service delivery are arguably a greater concern.

LasyLush/Neon - This is why the NHS needs to do some things BETTER (procurement, bureaucracy, sickness prevention) - and somethings LESS (provision of services) so that what is does do is done properly. We can't afford to give everyone everything they want. And we already don't. We need to have a grown up debate about what the NHS should and shouldn't do, instead of politicians bleating on about protecting it.

Ooo - I do agree with you but it is such a massive undertaking........it needs to be approached on a macro and micro level because each area has it's own particular needs and demographics. Ime cost pressures usually result in cuts rather than cuts + a creative approach to dealing with the service needs.

Making cuts are awful. Both DH and I have to do it in our various businesses and it's never nice.
I can completely understand why public sector workers are worrying.
But it has to come. The spending/borrowing is unsustainable.
Hopefully it can be mangaed in such a way as to make as few staff redundant as possible.

We did it by tapping into huge amounts of goodwill. First we took pay drops ourselves.
Then we offered redundancy, sebaticals, pay drops. The staff rallied.

Unfortunately, a friend had to sack all his workforce - there's only he and his wife left now, freelancing, because the staff couldn't agree.

Much will depend I think, on how the cuts are handled and how the staff react.

We have done and continue to do things BETTER/SMARTER/LEANER - call it what you will - at local levels. But I completely agree with you that there are things the NHS can and should stop doing and huge swathes of it that can still be done better and there needs to be fundamental system-wide changes to how the NHS is run. I would absolutly welcome those kind of debates and decisions.

But in reality you are given a 10% cut across the board and told to get on with it. That's no way to get effective services to those that really need it at the time they really need it.

Would you like to come and sort out my NHS Board?

I do think the NHS could learn a few things from the private sector - PRP for example. My pay is not performance led (well not really - agenda for change sets out specific requirments for each grade but there is no excuse not to meet the targets iyswim). I have had one appraisal in 15 years of employment with the same NHS trust.There were no performance based objectives as a result of that appraisal - just courses that I might want do to for my own development. No expectations from my employer. I find that frustrating and quite depressing.

ojf - you speak sense.
The NHS has become this untouchable thing, and yet we know that in its current form it can never achieve what everyone has come to expect.
I heard some bod on the radio saying there is always an infinite need for healthcare. It can never be sated. So we have to ask ourselves what we can do well.

Agree, Ladylush. KSF was supposed to sort all this out, and we are starting to use it as it was intended, but again, how much money did it cost to implement Agenda for Change? And there is still no national consistency across gradings. The whole process could and should have been streamlined and done in considerably less time. The private sector would never have allowed something like that to drag on for years.

Ooj/Lit - completely agree with you, but having turned this thread into "Can Mumsnet fix the NHS?" I have to go out.

Would happily carry on the debate another time!

lol at mumsnet fixing the NHS. If only

NeonCupCakes - The problem is that adjusting our expectations and taking a realistic attitude to the NHS requires a cultural change both within and without the NHS. Which will not be quick or easy. 10% cuts across the board are quick fixes that are always going to do more harm than targeted ones. But they are probably inevitable, and they might at least provide some pressure on the organisation to start addressing some of the systemic issues.

Ladybiscuit - I don't know anyone that has it cushy like your friends in our part of the public sector - and if there were they wouldn't last long!

most people I know work beyond their standard hours, work from home evening and weekends, rarely take a lunch break, etc etc and this is because we are committed to our work. the car park is always full by 8am and still half full at 7pm when the building closes.

So let me test my suggestions on cutting waste. Ready... deep breath public sector workers.

1. Freeze public sector pay for 2 years
2. Have a bonus system. That way staff are rewarded for achievements but it will not increase the pension liability or future salary budget
3. Stop final salary pensions for all staff.
4. Have a flexible benefit system so some staff can sacrifice salary if they want more holiday for example
5. Police should not get free travel on the trains
6. Police should be salaried and not able to claim overtime until at least 10 hours have been work. This is normal in the private sector. Most of my team stay until the job is done and do not claim overtime.
7. All public sector projects must have agreed success and failure strategy. Any new project should be prototyped with actual users before it is rolled out. The NHS computer system is just embarrassing
8. Ask staff what makes life difficult, time consuming. All the best ideas come from the bottom up.

Well most police officers I know don't take advantage of free travel anyway and they don't claim most of their overtime

And freeze public sector pay? So th gap between public sector pay and private sector for some things widens and we lose people? great idea

What makes you think that the private sector has got pay raises?

We cannot ignore the deficit. We really can't.

Very few private sectors firms can afford to pay for final salary pensions so in a way that gap is already very wide. Nobody wants cuts but they have to come.

Public Sector here, DH too.

DH regularly works 17 hour days, no overtime payments whatsoever, TOIL not a right, so he takes about 4 days off a year in leiu of extra hours.

I regularly work 40+ hours a week, no overtime for me either. Have to balance home and work more than DH due to young children.

Average Public Sector pension is £7000 per annum, and this includes high earners. Average Public Sector pension excluding high earners is below £5000 per annum.

1% pay rise for last 3 years - below inflation so in reality a cut.

No slacking where I work either, large cuts in workforce over the last 5 years, but no cut in workload. We are already approx 20% down on staff since 2005, more cuts this year - already looking at a further 10% - 15% under Labour, no idea what will happen now we have the Con-Dems.

We really need to stop the public/private sector mud slinging. We are all having it hard, and nobody deserves it, not the private sector or the public sector. Don't let the politicians set us against each other.

people wouldn't mind sacrificing things for the greater good but we aren't blind to the super rich and their spawn. it's shoved in our faces all the time

I do hope you don't think I was mud slinging. It is true we don't understand enough about how each other works. I have no union to protect me. I could arrive at work and be told that I am not longer needed.

My companies could not run IT projects like the public sector appear to.

jollydiane the mudslinging comment wasn't aimed at you. In fact it wasn't aimed at any particular poster today - it just seems generally there is a private v public sector slanging match going on and I don't think it helps.

Where do your views around public sector IT projects come from? I would be very careful forming views from stuff you read in the media.