ID Cards - sure this is a stupid question but...

[alienbump]

I don't really understand the strength of feeling against them. I sort of feel that I should be against the very idea, most people who I would consider I have shared values with are dead against them but when I try and work out why I, as an individual would object to having one I can't think of one single reason. So I feel I must be missing something and would love to know the who's or the why's that make ID's cards such a no no.

I'm like that, most people I know rant against them as an obvious evil but I can't see the problem. Haven't they had them in many European countries for decades, where they function as a sort of passport? I've always been a bit jealous of my Spanish and German friends who could use them instead of passports (this was, perhaps, pre 9/11).

because it makes it illegal for you to leave home without your wallet?

because it means you exist at the convenience of the state and not the other way round?

because it was going to cost 10bn ?

why the hell should you have to carry a card around stating who you are?

because there are all kinds of people who for various reasons woud find it hard to get one (it adds an additional crime to being homeless) - eg adopted people, people who move often, have severed ties with family, etc..

because it wasn't going to do any good. It is useless against terrorism, and useles against fraud (the majority of which is not face-to-face)

passport = something you get if you want one.

Id card = would have been compulsorary... it think the prevalence in Europe says something about the different relationship citizens hav with their governent. Not something desriable in this country.

What edgar said

and the fact that we were going to have to pay for the privilidge.

Because behind the ID card is national identity database containing personal information about you and your family. Do you trust the government not to lose your data? Do you trust the every single person out of multitudes of people eligible to access the database not to snoop on their friends and neighbours?

Was it definite that carrying the ID cards away would be compulsory? I think that was still undecided.

Also, they wouldn't have to be tied to a current address, they could have been implemented in different ways.

But the cost thing is a clincher, the country can't afford it right now.

ID cards are the thin end of a potentially disastrous civil liberties wedge. Right now, as a British citizen, you are allowed to go about your business quietly and privately provided you stay within the law. You are not required to prove your identity unless you are trying to leave/enter the country or do something like open a bank account. If we were had ID cards the implication is that we could be asked to produce them in all kinds of new situations. Today's government could be quite benign but a government of the future could make it mandatory that we carried them with us at all times so they could keep tabs on our movements via the police. "Pass Laws"

ID cards in the wrong hands is also potentially disastrous, given how often data gets accidentally lost. Identity theft is a big problem and if criminals were to find a way to forge ID cards then they could wreak havoc.

DNA databases, ID cards and other ways of keeping us neatly logged and categorised for doing nothing except being a law-abiding citizen are a bad thing.

Because they are a very different animal to the ID cards currently used in most other countries. They are supposed to be hack-proof by having a lot of DNA info on to tie it to you (IIRC) and of course, the sample with the coding to the proper standard was cloned in about 3 minutes.

It was also all going to be backed up to a database which will inevitably leak like a sieve and information will be inputted incorrectly which will then be a bureaucratic nightmare to change.

I wouldn't actually have as much of a fundamental objection to carrying a piece of plastic with my name on it - like the driving licence for eg and calling it an ID card but I am very bothered about having something which is supposed to be incapable of being copied and an absolute guarantee of identity which the former govt seemed to be going for.

Also agree with Edgar's points.

See, I'm still not feeling the angst (and I really would quite like to!).

"because there are all kinds of people who for various reasons woud find it hard to get one (it adds an additional crime to being homeless) - eg adopted people, people who move often, have severed ties with family, etc.." - as none of the reasons hinder people having a passport I didn't think they would hinder you having an ID card.

Maybe it's because I'm incredibly boring and wouldn't really care who could see information about me or my family, I'm not sure what sort of stuff people don't want to be held on record though?

I quite agree with the cost etc, can't see any great advantages to having ID cards so why waste money, resources implementing it.

Oh - but I am absolutely crap at remembering to carry purses, phones, keys etc so that is one point I'd have trouble with, my disorganisation being made illegal. And now I'm thinking a little micro-chip like the dog has would be more practical but I feel that maybe shows I'm still not getting it.

You know that impatient, irritated feeling you get (or maybe it's just me) when you pitch back up at Gatwick or Manchester after you've been overseas and you have to wait and wait and wait in a massive queue for someone to look you suspiciously up and down, comparing you with your passport photo, to get back in your own country... potentially that's what life could be like with ID cards. Having to prove who you are just to go about your daily business in your own home town.

I don't really go for the "thin end of the wedge" argument. I'd agree that some of those possible uses/misuses of personal data and ID cards would be problematic. But I don't see these as essential to ID cards, it would be possible to have an ID card system which wasn't like living in apartheid-era South Africa. Just something you could use instead of a driving licence or passport.

I tend to assume that governments will/do have all that personal data about us all already.

The issue I have with identity cards is they mark me out as being foreign.

It may just be me, but I've observed that it's getting more and more difficult to be an immigrant in this country. Because I'm white, middle class, educated, from a former colony etc, I blend in pretty well...until I open my mouth that is (though I can fake a good Sarf London accent if needed). As a result I get included in a lot of anti-immigrant conversationsin the pub/bus stop/library/Post Office etc. At times this can be quite uncomfortable and on occasion I've felt mildly threatened.

If I have to carry an ID card, which as an immigrant I will be required to do, then I am instantly identifiable as "the other". I'm really not comfortable with this. I pay my taxes like everyone else.

I know who I am and if other people have trouble trusting me that is their problem not mine. I can think of better things to spend tens of billions of pounds on especially during a recession.

We are on a lot of individual databases at the moment, some of which we can opt out of. But that's a different thing to the basic concept of having to prove who you are on demand. There is no guarantee, no matter how benign your current government, that 20 or 30 years down the track civil liberties did not get eroded.

All the reasons people have identified about losing data/incorrect data/potentially having to 'prove' yourself in more and more situations.

And, fundamentally, because if you don't have to carry it it does naff all good anyway. And if you do have to carry it it raises all the civil liberties concerns above.

Oh, and finally, because I have never heard a convincing argument for what crime it would actually prevent - the London bombers were UK citizens with pretty much clean records. Don't see where they would have had to waive a card and what good it would have done if they had. Now some people now argue that they weren't about terrorism, but that was definitely the mood music of the time.

To me, a photocard driving licence or passport does the job perfectly adequately. Perhaps room for the option of another document for a person who doesn't drive and doesn't want to travel - but since it would cost pretty much the same as a passport you might as well get one of those.

I resent the cost more than anything.Why should I have to pay for one when my driving licence or passport will suffice? Unless I am doing anything wrong, no one has the right to demand who I am on the street.

Because ID cards = identity theft, due to the national database and the millions of officials with access to it (not to mention their predilection for leaving data on trains, etc.). If it were just a piece of paper with your name and photo on it, that would be one thing, but to have all your identity details stored digitally on a card that has been proven to be easily hackable -- no bloody way.

And having to pay for it as well???!!!