No PR or the BNP will get seats

[Cammelia]

!!

Not necessarily. Many PR systems have a de minimis eg 5% of the national vote before seats are allocated.

We live in a democracy - if enough people vote for them they will get seats and so they should. Please don't read that as support for them. I do not support them or anything they stand for but if enough people vote.........

Yes, and in a democracy if enough people voted, the Nazi party would get in, and well they would deserve it....

But yes, the 5% thing would probably do work.

Do work??? You know what I mean

But in a democracy, you can't decide which parties are legitimate or not. The most important thing is for the system to be fair.

Agree with McDreamy. If enough people vote for a party they should get representation in Parliament - that's democracy.

Much as I cannot stand the BNP, I must acknowledge that there are eejits out there who support them. And perhaps their views should be aired in Parliament - if only so they can be stomped on (verbally of course).

I like the sound of the 5% thing too or else parliament would be very "bitty" - can't think of a better word

It's ok saying that they deserve their say etc...if you are not targeted by them.

Say you have a predominantly asian area and your MP was a BNP member, how on earth would you feel??

Also, when does it not be ok for them to have power, when they get 5 seats? 50 seats? 326 seats?

That aside, they are notably lazy and rarely turn up for their council duties, so hopefully not an issue.

If they don't get their say the danger is that the country becomes complacent about the danger they are.

Let the fact that they may get a seat be the incentive to continue to campaign and argue against them and continue their demise.

There are ways to deal with this:

A % bar

A change to the Oath so they won't take it and therefore can't take up their seats (like Sinn Fein won't sit)

Accepting that we're a democracy and they're currently a legitimate political party

If we're looking at AV-style PR, then you still need to get 50% of the votes in a constituency (after the re-jigging with second/third preferences) to win a seat. Think the BNP will ever do that?

AV isn't PR - it's still majoritation.

AV+ is slightly more PR...

its democracy innit. i think its worth the risk, to give a voice to everyone

True, frakkedup, realised that after I read my post .

I kinda meant, no need to panic about PR, we are only likely to be offered AV, maybe STV if Clegg really kicks Cameron arse.

BNP are more of a danger if we get STV. The result in Barking, if duplicated across a super-constituency, could see a BNP seat.

But even with that I would still prefer to see STV.

But in a bigger constituency, the BNP wouldn't have got 10% of the vote, probably?
What's next door to Barking? (Don't say UKIP! )

Hence my qualified of 'if duplicated'

I suspect it would be NE greater London lumped together (I haven't checked the proposed map for this) but surrounding constituencies

Daggenham : 11.2% (3rd)
E Ham : No candidate
W Ham : No candidate (but the National Front polled 2.3%)
Ilford South : No candidate
Barking : 14.6% (3rd)
Leyton & Wanstead : 1.4% (6th)
Ilford North : 3.3% (4th)
Romford : 5.2% (4th)
Hornchurch & Upminster : 6.4% (4th)

And a fair few of those the BNP had never stood before.

The BNP is just one fringe 'nationalist' party that might just get enough support to squeak a few MPs under PR. It's not unrealistic to assume that a mainstream religious group would take the opportunity to gather political support under a party banner if they thought there was a chance of representation. A fundamentalist Christian, Jewish or Islamic party fed up with a secular society, for example, has a sizeable potential electorate.

Jon Cruddas has a good article on how the FPTP system allows the BNP to thrive in safe Labour etc. seats.
here.

But yes, the BNP might get seats under PR (proper PR, not AV). But I don't think that's a good reason to shy away from it.

Here in the Czech Republic there's a 5% threshold, but it contributes to a "wasted vote" thing so I'm not too keen on it. I.e. people don't know whether to vote Green in the forthcoming elections or not, since opinion polls show them at 4% and people don't know whether they'll cross the threshold. (They used to have more, and were in the last government).

(I'm not suggesting that any party on a couple of % should get in, but just saying that a % threshold doesn't work well with opinion polls).

The Christian Party already exist and have candidates in many seats...

The BNP, IMO, are more of a threat because they are not 'exclusive' (not just for any one faith).

So, they get a seat or five in Parliament and then... what? Are a real threat? If people want to vote for them their choice should be represented.

Stretch, a predominantly Asian area isn't likely to get a BNP MP, is it? Even if that happens, it may be that there are other people who don't trust/want their own MP who has been voted in by their neighbours. I am generally pro-Conservative but now live in a constituency where a total arse of an MP who fiddled his expenses big-time has just been re-elected. I voted Green

I think - I hope - that getting an MP or two elected wouldn't really help them?
They haven't covered themselves in glory in their council seats, Question Time did them no favours... I'm not sure they hold up well to the searchlight (as it were) of public exposure.

I think they are a threat. Look at similar parties in Europe. The Front National in France does not win power but Jean-Marie Le Pen came second in the Presidential election to Jacques Chirac. Also Jorg Haider was powerful in Austria, and I think the Swiss have a very right-wing powerful party. Pim Fortuyn did well in Holland and there are other examples. They are all more professional parties than the BNP. But it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that the BNP might one day transform themselves into parties like that.

if people vote for it, it should be represented. better still, don't have representatives.