I don't want to vote Tory...come and explain to me why Labour's spending plans won't end in disater

[Litchick]

I'm a life long Labour supporter...but I'm really worried.

Let's put aside the Iraq war, ID cards, the disgraceful attempt to stop home education etc etc...

What's really worrying me is the economy. We owe so much. And yes I know some of it came from bailing out the banks which I think was the right thing to do ( if painful), but a lot of it is the refusal to curb spending when tax receipts are down.

I've been told by many an unreconstructed Keynesian that spending through the recession is the right way to go.

But......if we keep borrowing won't we eventually be unable to serice the debt? And what if our credit rating is down graded won't that exacerbate the situation?

Please tell me why, economically, it's the right course of action.

newyorkshire

Yes, those evil small businesses. Cafe owners and chemists are pure scum. Local bicycle repair shops are beneath contempt. And don't even get me started about newsagents.

We would gain more from them too, the Tories I mean.

But. . . we're part of a larger society aren't we, and ultimately how fair and just that society is matters v. much.

I think, anyway.

"One also wonders if we won't end up with enormous tax hikes at the ned of the day, to keep meeting the payments. "

GB has been steadily increasing indirect taxation since 1997. His planned rise in NI contributions is tax by another name. When Labour lost power in 1979 the basic rate of income tax was 34%.... rising to 83% for the highest earners. If spending isnt' stemmed at all that's the kind of tax levels we could end up with. And if net contributors to the economy have a lot less disposable income together with wage-freezes then growth is stunted just the same.

It's not an 'either or' of course. Spending and taxation will both get adjusted. But I think the Labour plans are less likely to achieve a positive outcome

my really simple take on it again...

.. keeping people in work I think is preferable. Cant remember who said its like taking a drip away from someone who isnt well enough yet to live without it.

Personnaly, if I am taxed a bit more later, thats ok as rather that than loose my job [I am public sector worker] and I dont mind because under a labour gove at least it will go to public services. At least people will still have their homes, good schools and a good healthcare service etc! people moan about paying taxes, but then say isn't sweeded great...in Sweeden the taxes are huge but everything is run well and public services are excellent. You get what you pay for don't you?

I agree. Though, like everyone else I gulp when I receive my tax bill, and grumble as I write my cheque.

GB's recent increases on higher rate tax payers have not been greeted with a party in this household...but we would swallow them, for the nationa good. Whether I could support further increases? I think 50% is the tipping point. Paying more than half of every pound earned to the government feels unfair.

I am all for spending money on public services, but we need to have the money to do so. Labour have made a big difference to public services IMO, but there needs to be an aadjustment to make things sustainable. Currently, public spending is at least 25% more than government revenues. (They always talk about % of GDP, but surely % of tax receipts is more relevant). Essentially this means that they have an income of £750 but spend £1000. This is clearly not sustainable. Greece has spent above its means for years and now look at the result.

In terms of the mix last time there was a big deficit in the early 90s, the tories filled it 50% with tax rises and 50% with spending cuts.

The fact that the debt is mature simply means that we don't need to refinance (basically remortgage) for a while. It doesn't mean the debt doesn't exist.

sorry, not sweeded, I mean sweeden.
And, no I don't hate small businesses, we need them of course. I just think that people shouldn't be ripped off on the back of someone elses prosperity.

I agree that the way out of the recession has got to be by supporting business and growth, especially small businesses.

DH works for a small business and they've almost gone under recently, they think they will be safer under the Tories.

Personally I will be financially worse off if the Tories get in, but I've still voted for them as I think it'll be best for the country overall. I'm prepared to be worse off if it helps to get out of the recession.

All these people saying they'll vote Labour as they don't want their tax credits cut, etc. Well who do they think is paying for their tax credits? You pay for your own tax credits indirectly. If you have more tax credits then it either means that the money isn't there to spend on public services. Or you do what has been done for the past few years, give tax credits away and spend on public services, everyone is well off and happy but then oooops, people start to realise that the country can't afford it.

This is about the only article I've found that talks about the state of the economy and what it means in language I can understand.

I have to confess it appeals to me as it's not quite so dark and gloomy as some reports I've read

only problem with that is that if peoples personnal expenses are cut back too soon or too much [ie: ctc's], then they will be spending a whole lot less and there goes the story again. less spending, less demand, shopkeepers loose out, restaurants close, businesses close etc etc.
A more smoother, transitional, carefuly planned out over a longer while change is preferable isn't it?

Get this into perspective please, and drop the it's all Mrs T's legacy. She was ousted in 1990 I think, and we had another 7 years of Tory govt, with Major being returned as PM in 1992.

Mrs T went 20 years ago, so you judge a political party now on what it looked like 20 years ago, whilst expecting all the Tories to forget Healy ('til the pips squeak), and Wilson and Callaghan and the winter of discontent, 'because Labour is different now'. Well, so are the Tories fgs.

As for 'I just think that people shouldn't be ripped off on the back of someone elses prosperity.', do explain how the small business people are ripping others off? They presumably pay income tax, NI and VAT for themselves. How is that ripping anyone off?

newyorkshire

What makes you think we can afford a smooth, transitional change?

Need I remind you that our deficit (purely in percentage terms) is bigger than that of Greece.

Seriously ST - how do you know they're different? Honestly? I know it's frustrating when people hark back, and it feels like a lazy kind of shorthand. But do you honestly believe in compassionate conservatism then?

Quite a few conservative mp's are against the minimum wage. If this comes to fruition, then a lot of bosses wil be ripping off workers, not all, but many.

Our butcher broke down a few weeks ago because he can't compete with the prices of big supermarkets...so he's selling up. We are all killing our economy because we all shop in the monster supermarkets where everything comes from abroad.

My friends who are farmers are selling up. The supermarkets who drove down their prices for milk first time round are now bringing it in cheaply from abroad.

Nothing is produced or manufactured in the UK anymore. Look at the labels. We as consumers have turned our back and let the big monopolies control price.

The way forward is to break up the monopolies (which voting Tory won't achieve) and create new homegrown wealth which could be a Renewable Sector.

Environment = Lib Dem.
Economics = Vince Cable

Just an opinion

Maybe, if the conservatives are ''new''. can you explain why so many don't want a minimum wage [you know, seeing as they ''care'' about everyone]?

How have they changed ST?

Did you see the article moleworth posted earlier on another thread?

if they are ''new'', why do they have such disdain for single parent families...That is not new.

if they are ''new'' why do some conservative mp's try to ''cure'' homosexuals? Old attitudes I'd say! Or is that their ''new thing''?

Re: compassionate conservatism, look at what the tories' 'model' council in Hammersmith & Fulham has done.

Ah you beat me to it WB

I don't think there is that much to choose between them economically ... they are over emphasising the difference because of the election, but both parties are going to have to cut quite savagely to pay off the deficit, it's just a question of shall we start this year or next year?

I could never vote conservative because I don't trust them to maintain essential public services, maintain basic protection for workers like the minimum wage and I find their attitudes on social issues neanderthal (such as proposal to promote marriage through the tax system, gay rights, etc).

In this particular election I am particularly concerned about their "you take over running public services proposal". The sort of people who have the free time to take over running their local school are not generally the people I want running my local school.

sorry Molesworth - put a typo in your name earlier

Hope you don't mind me repeating your link, just think as many people as possible should know what it is they are considering voting for.

if they are ''new'' why are they still giving tax breaks to the very rich? Thats the same old, same old too.

When new labour came to power, lots of people said, 'ah, I remember this lot, it'll be the 3 day week and we'll all be back in the grip of the unions'

and Tony B and GB said, 'no you won't, here's why and here's how we've got our house in order, how we've moved into the centre ground'

But when DC says 'I'm a new conservative, a compassionate conservative'

well you look at him, and you look at his policies, and you think

new, in what way exactly?