Victory to the Greek people

[Coolfonz]

Some real politics going on in Athens...

It is ALWAYS the poor wot suffer the most.

Yes unfortunately it will be the poor that suffer the most.
Cut backs have to be made otherwise Greece will collapse (if we do not collapse anyway)but it just seems so unfair that the poor are going to be paying for the greed of the previous governments and the greed of the tax dodging rich.
The government could start by taxing the bloody church as a start

The churches income for 2008 was 20 million Euros. This was what they declared as their 'official income'

i can almost guarantee that it is a lot more than that!

Oh no, don't get started on the church...sheer madness lies that way

Always the same stuff - oh you HAVE to work longer, you HAVE to be paid less. Who says? Who was working the derivatives market with the Greek Tories to cook their books? The poor? The middle class? It was Goldman. Goldman cooked the books for Greece, you think they should pay?

There is no such thing as economics, only politics. You can see it everywhere. On this thread.

Goldman shouldn't pay. They wear nice suits. And it would be complicated.

The poor should pay, work longer, retire later. The politics of the servile. I say good on the anarchists in Greece, form another society...

I agree Cool. Up the revolution (as long as it isn't the women making the spannakopitta).

Good point about Goldman Sachs and the Greek cross-currency swap. GS devised 'a special swap with fictional exchange rates' (Der Spiegel).

Coolfonz - the anarchist set fire to the bank today that killed three workers. There have been reports that one was a pregnant lady

So none of us really have the appetite for a full blown revolution but would be more than prepared to see a couple of Goldman Sach's top brass up against the wall.

Seems fair enough to me.

Coolfonz banks rarely if ever lend their own money to sovereigns nowadays -- it's all passed through to bond investors like er, pension funds. So the losers would be us. Which of course you would know, being an investment banker and all .

Elenio - yeah that's awful, see above, not good at all.

People in the UK do pay tax - see our National Statistics if you want to

Hah...no sure they don't lend, normally the other way around...but they cooked it...i work somewhere btw, doesnt make me a banker...i aint telling you my job...and no it's not a cleaner or IT...

But look...for me...since 1989...neo-liberlaism has been failing. Contiues to fail. LTCM, dot com, etc etc

Now it is picking up pace. Getting worse. Now structural adjustments inside the EU. The things people were fighting about in Seattle 1999/ Genoa 2001 etc etc but those were happening to poorer people...a few crusties got shot dead by the pigs, thousand attacked, lots of folk laughed...

So you can make it complicated. Or simple. Banks needed socialism, bail outs by the state, as they had a gun to the head of the populations. Now they are turning on the very people, sovereign state (debt), which bailed them out.

At some point a line will be drawn.

Didnt happen in 1998-2001. I dont think it will happen now, i dont think there will be a revolution in Greece, but it will happen...

Better to do it earlier than later imo. Soz bit rushed...hope clear

Sorry Coolfonz your post is not clear at all. Please come back later and explain.

Makes sense to me CF is right - structural adjustment has long been used as a tool of the right in developing countries, and now it's creeping westwards.

Interesting blog post by good old Richard Murphy. Scroll down for the text of a letter from the European TUC proposing policy measures that would benefit Greece while helping to shore up the Euro.

Structural adjustments: basically people/institutions who don't need public services/pensions cutting public services/pensions to create growth in an economy, which normally ends up in the hands of narrow private elites. Justified by trickle down.

These things have happened all over the poor world, all of them have been failures. In Seattle/Genoa people protested, some were killed, beaten, gassed, shot, raped, tortured, killed themselves - most people in the rich world thought it was funny. Tony Blair "anarchist travelling circus " etc.

But the market can't stand still. There have to be more victims.

Greece is the first in the EU. Won't be the last.

Rolling over and saying oh we HAVE to obey X or Y won't make it go away. It will just end up reducing wages, passing more money to the super rich.

It is politics, it is how the modernist right operate.

Greece is riddled with corruption. Many poor people have been happily conspiring in the corruption, (eg getting paid for jobs that they don't even bother to do). You don't have to be well-paid to be corrupt.

The main beneficiaries are the Greek oligarchs who made huge amounts of money from public sector contracts. They have now moved their assets overseas. If Greece defaults it will be bank shareholders and bondholders (not necessarily in Greece) who'll take the hit - many of them pensioners and perhaps no more wealthy than many of the Greeks who are complaining about the austerity package. The Greek oiigarchs will get through this unscathed as they are probably now hedged in gold.

It's Eurosceptic to suggest Greece should leave the Euro. But if they don't like the austerity package (and I can see why they don') I don't see how they will be able to avoid permanent deflation and unemployment without leaving the Euro.

Europe have been too slow responding to this crisis (that's coalition governments for you ). If only they'd acted a few months ago, here is a thread I started way back in February February The EU have been so constipated that the problem has grown, and is still growing. And it's contagious.

Greek default already decided/

Poor people, middle class people, don't create the fiscal climate for corruption, even though some may participate. It's like blaming poor US homeowners for the sub prime. It's just a tactic to say well you're as bad as we are and in the end who cares?

Greece should say, we ain't paying and nationalise its banking sector. If its politicians had any balls they'd have done it already.

Like anyone who is bankrupt. You say sorry and go on with your business, rather than opt for a lifetime of shite...

You could always do what Mahatir did and suspend deals in your (non Euro) currency/put breaks on money leaving the country etc etc. Everyone screamed oh no you cant do that, what about the glorious free market and he did and it was fine...

GrimmaTheNome: 05-May-10 14:04:00
"I'm afraid the Greek people need to come to their senses and realise they have been living beyond their means."

I'm afraid the British people need to come to their senses and realise they have been living beyond their means.

BBC: Total National Debt Per Household = £90,000
Radio 4, PM,Thursday, 29 April

Summary:
Cuts per household per year:

£1,350 from the Lib Dems
£1,700 from Labour
£2,000 from the Conservatives

Deficit = Annual borrowing
Debt = Stock of all the money that the government owes, on-balance-sheet.

Official National Debt = on-balance-sheet
Off-balance-sheet "debts" (obligations) : PFI + Public Sector Pensions.

National numbers:
776 bn - National Debt (official, "on-balance-sheet" debt)
almost 20% more - PFI (off-balance-sheet)
770 bn - Public Sector Pensions (off-balance-sheet)

Per household:
£30,000 - National Debt
£5,000 - PFI
a few hundred pounds either way - Banks Bailout
£30,000 - Public Sector Pensions
£65,000 - Total Now

£25,000 - Borrowing in the next 4 years
£90,000 - GRAND TOTAL

Scary scary times.
RIP those that lost their lives today in Greece.

bizarre thread title. DO you think th eGreeks are celebrating their great victory OP

Im afraid that anti greek feeling seems to be slowly gathering momentum in germany, though it is still at the level of jokes at the moment, but claims like "germans owe us money as reparation for the 2nd world war" are not going to make the situation any easier.
Neither are these riots and refusal to accept the inevitable.