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Politics

Tory's to hike up VAT to 19.5%

153 replies

magentadreamer · 02/05/2010 09:41

Sorry it's a DM story but another reason not to trust the party that gave us record unemployment, sky high mortgage rates in the 80's the poll tax and sold off the family silver amongst other things.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/election/article-1269677/Tories-secret-plot-raise-VAT-19- 5-emergency-June-Budget.html

OP posts:
Alouiseg · 02/05/2010 12:46

Minimum wage is a farce and has created an artificial floor which has the effect of raising prices for the consumer.

Tax credits cost far too much to administer therefore we would be better off just having a decent tax free allowance.

Sure start wasn't around when my dc were small and funnily enough they are perfectly fine as are all their friends who didn't benefit from these wondrous places! The funds would be better spent in the health service.

MmeBlueberry · 02/05/2010 12:47

But we are already paying more tax, both because tax is a % of income, plus the actual % is higher.

It easy to say that higher earners should pay more tax, but we are not allowed to say that lower earners should work harder/longer, or for scroungers to get a job in the first place.

Double standard, eh?

policywonk · 02/05/2010 12:50

I imagine it's easy to demand that the working poor work yet harder, and to talk about 'scroungers', if you have pretty much no idea about the realities of these people's lives.

sarah293 · 02/05/2010 12:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

MadameCastafiore · 02/05/2010 12:52

If you saw our tax bill you would know the meaning of pain Policywink - the thing that pisses high earners off is that they have more often than not worked hard after getting a good education - one that we are all entitled to - and they are paying huge amounts of tax for making a good go at their lives - DH doesn't even get a tax allowance anymore - whereas the people earning the least anmount of money say they are paying a higher amount of tax interms of what they earn when it is bull - after child tax credits and working family tax credit they are taking home more money than they actually earn by working - where is the fairness in that.

And giving up what - that weekend away to the B&B in cornwall that DH & I have each year - oh dear poor B&B owners, poor local restauranteurs, - then we'll cancel our gym memberships (as would lots of our friends at the same gym) - cue laying off a couple of life guards, a couple of the ladies in the creche, one or two behind reception , maybe 3 in the bar - that £100 a month we save because we should be hit a bit harder won't hit us that hard it will hit the people at the other end of the spectrum the hardest - then they will have to find a new job or claim more - and who will that benefit - no one.

Alouiseg · 02/05/2010 12:53

policywonk

Why should they give up even more???? As MadameCastafiore says the money they earn goes into the economy as a stimulus.

It may be tricky to get into the States just because it takes your fancy but American companies are knocking as we speak. Dh is always being approached and several of his friends are already over there.

Singapore was offering tax incentives for certain occupations and all Uk can offer is zero appreciation for it's net contributors.

animula · 02/05/2010 12:55

MmeBlueberry - capitalism requires that there be a surplus of workers - the unemployed, the badly-paid - they keep wages down, thus costs down.

It's in no-one's interests to get rid of them. Just keep them alive at the lowest possible cost. Likewise, it's not in capitalism's interests to have full-employment.

Lots of people say all the things you say in your last paragraph. And the low-paid are, I suspect, working bloody hard already.

What on earth are you proposing?

To kill the poor? Make them work until they drop? Why? It's not in capitalism's interests. It's also not awfully humane to kill people/work them to death for the crime of being poor - we live in a capitalist society, someone has to be at the bottom.

Sorry, I don't quite get where you're coming from.

MadameCastafiore · 02/05/2010 12:56

And policywonk I have a great idea of being poor - I can remember my stepmother eeking out a chicken from Sunday to Wednesday and literally being given bread and chickeny flavoured water on the wednesday - I only had hand me downs and had to learn to sew to mend my own clothes - but my father is now very very rich (a complete tosser) but he did it himself and good on him, he is dyslexic too.

What you fail to realise is that very few people got to where they are today from being born with a silver spoon in our mouths and we resent working our balls off and then being attacked at every turn for doing so - lots of us know poverty - we just pulled our socks up made the right life choices and got out of it - remember that before you start attacking those that have done well for themselves.

expatinscotland · 02/05/2010 12:59

'after child tax credits and working family tax credit they are taking home more money than they actually earn by working - where is the fairness in that.'

It's not even called Working Family Tax Credit. Hasn't been for years.

It's Working Tax Credit and it tops out at £16000/pa. Gross. Per family.

So people like nurses at the bottom of the pay scale aren't getting it.

But of course, they can't possibly work as hard as 'high earners', whom I'm sure are going to be flocking to those countries where they can actually get in. Places like Saudi and Manilla, Lagos and Angola, Kuwait and Iraq.

Such fun places to live with a family, I can tell you from some experience.

MadameCastafiore · 02/05/2010 12:59

But Riven rather than doling out EMA make education until a certain stage compulsary unless you have secured a job or apprenticeship - no more NEETS who more often than not become the long term unemployed.

policywonk · 02/05/2010 13:00

'If you saw our tax bill you would know the meaning of pain' - oh please. You do understand, don't you, that there are people out there who have £5 to feed their children for the week? Don't talk about your pain, it's embarrassing.

'the thing that pisses high earners off is that they have more often than not worked hard after getting a good education'. Jeez. The thing that pisses low-income workers off is that they work damned hard and get paid peanuts for it, can't afford holidays or transport, have to live in poor quality housing and send their kids to crap schools because they can't afford good catchment areas. I know whom I've more sympathy for.

'they are paying huge amounts of tax for making a good go at their lives' - who on earth are you to say that lower earners haven't made a good go of their lives? Do you measure people's value entirely by their income? How weird.

'after child tax credits and working family tax credit they are taking home more money than they actually earn by working - where is the fairness in that.' - a) I don't know where you've got that stat from. I get both WTC and CTC, and it comes nowhere near my earnings. and b), the fairness is in trying to ensure a decent standard of living for everyone. Hard concept for some to grasp, obviously.

MmeBlueberry · 02/05/2010 13:01

They would have better lives if they worked, pw.

policywonk · 02/05/2010 13:02

What you fail to realise, Mme, is that the working poor work just as hard as you. They just don't get paid as much.

animula · 02/05/2010 13:03

Who says they aren't working?

Not everyone in capitalism will be well-paid. It doesn't work like that.

See point made earlier re. surplus Labour. That's not just Leftie-ness. I heard Michael Portillo say the same thing. So there.

expatinscotland · 02/05/2010 13:04

'we resent working our balls off and then being attacked at every turn for doing so - lots of us know poverty - we just pulled our socks up made the right life choices and got out of it - remember that before you start attacking those that have done well for themselves.'

But your pound is somehow better than the one the working poor puts in?

They have no right to resent working their balls off to pay to bail out those who overstretched themselves and made poor financial moves?

'Lots of us know poverty' is like saying 'Well, I know black people' so it's okay to slag some of them off.

Attacked?

You're attacked for paying tax?

Ever tried living in one of those countries with such nice, low taxes?

Your taxes are not a punishment. They don't 100% go to 'scroungers'. They go to ensure a peaceful society with a good infrastructure that allows you to go to earn what living you chose relatively unscathed.

But you're perfectly free to find out just how much more wonderful it is to live in a place with very low ones.

Best of luck.

DaisymooSteiner · 02/05/2010 13:05

Remind me again who removed the 10% tax band?

expatinscotland · 02/05/2010 13:08

Talk to people who earn a 'good living' in a place that has low low tax or easy to get out of taxes.

Places like Brazil or S. Africa.

Ever seen those peoples' fortresses houses there?

And being under constant threat of kidnap or murder every time you leave your door - or not. Bloody fab way to live!

If a natural disaster happens, what little infrastructure ceases to exist. Complete anarchy and looting reign until military or junta gets in and literally starts spraying bullets and lobbing grenades.

Not to mention the wonderful potential for coups in places with low infrastructure and limited strong government.

Alouiseg · 02/05/2010 13:10

Ten men go out for beer. The bill for all ten comes to £100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing. The fifth would pay £1. The sixth would pay £3. The seventh would pay £7. The eighth would pay £12. The ninth would pay £18. The tenth man (the richest) would pay £59.

So, that's what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. He said, "Since you are all such good customers, I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by £20. Drinks for the ten now cost just £80."

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes, so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men -- the paying customers?

How could they divide the £20 windfall so that everyone would get his "fair share"? They realized that £20 divided by six is £3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay!

And so:
The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings). The sixth now paid £2 instead of £3 (33%savings). The seventh now pay £5 instead of £7 (28%savings). The eighth now paid £9 instead of £12 (25% savings). The ninth now paid £14 instead of £18 (22% savings). The tenth now paid £49 instead of £59 (16% savings).
Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four
continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.
"I only got a pound out of the £20," declared the sixth man. He
pointed to the tenth man, "but he got £10!"
"Yeah, that's right,' exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a pound, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than I!"
"That's true!!"shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get £10 back when I got only £2 ? The wealthy get all the breaks!"
"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!" The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.
The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important.
They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!
And that, boys and girls, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up any more. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

expatinscotland · 02/05/2010 13:13

'In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.'

Nothing's stopping them from doing so.

If they're such hot shit then they can easily get a visa for someplace nice.

If they're not so then they can go to some place where the hot water cuts off at 11PM no matter how much you earn and unpredictable blackouts.

MmeBlueberry · 02/05/2010 13:14

animula - the conversation that I am in is talking about scroungers. You might have a different definition, but my definition is someone who could work but chooses not to. I really don't have a lot of sympathy, I'm afraid, and I do resent supporting these people to maintain their lifestyles.

expatinscotland · 02/05/2010 13:18

'You might have a different definition, but my definition is someone who could work but chooses not to.'

The biggest class of people like this are people who draw pension.

Of course, the DM would have you believe otherwise.

MmeBlueberry · 02/05/2010 13:22

Good analogy, alouisg.

Expat, it is pretty easy for US companies to move their US employees to the US. The visas are pretty quick too (around 2 week wait for a L1/L2 visa in London). Many of these high earners work for multinationals, who are either HQd in the US, or very welcome to move their HQ there.

My DH's company has recently moved their Euro HQ to Geneva, and about half of his site moved there from the London area. Geneva is outside the EU, so not a place that offers and automatic right to employment and residence - but the Swiss made it very easy, and gave lots of tax breaks.

expatinscotland · 02/05/2010 13:22

'It may be tricky to get into the States just because it takes your fancy but American companies are knocking as we speak. Dh is always being approached and several of his friends are already over there.'

Go for it, then!

MadameCastafiore · 02/05/2010 13:25

So shall we all piss off overseas expat - where would all the low earners be then - being taxed to buggery and not having jobs in many of the service industries that's where!

animula · 02/05/2010 13:42

You know what, MmeC, I think we'd fill many of the extremely important jobs of the pissers-offers surprisingly easily from the ranks of the dgenerate low-paid.

It is the secret knowledge that there isn't, actually, something in being poor that makes you innately stupid and inept and genetically/psychologically worthy of your position of being crapped on by capitalism and thus very little innately separating the glorious winners from the sad losers, that fuels the hatred and fear of the poor.