We need your thoughts on Finance lessons being dropped from Schools Bill

[CatherineHMumsnet]

There is another thread debating sex education and home schooling elements of the PSHE being dropped from the Schools Bill here www.mumsnet.com/Talk/politics/942891-Fear-for-your-children-39-s-education-under-the-Tories but we had an interesting email in from finance expert Martin Lewis pointing out that the removal of PSHE (Personal, Social, Health and Economic Education)from the Schools Bill also means that compulsory financial education has been dropped too.

What do you reckon? Do you agree as Lewis puts it: 'We're a nation that educates our youth into debt when they go to university, but never educates them about debt.'

When I went to university I was astonished at how little others knew. That included the so called student bankers who merely trotted out the mantra from their leaders.

If you are unable to understand or control your own finances, how can you teach a child ?

Why don't we just drop using computers in schools because some Luddite parents cannot use them ? Same logic.

Can Martin Lewis not just record some 'lessons' for schools? He is knowledgeable and conveys the right message...no - too simplistic?? It could kick off some classroom discussion...

Another point... a lot of parents teach their children the benefits of SAVING but because they're from a different generation they don't even consider teaching them about debt... because its not a concept they are so familiar with.

Anyone know what they do in other countries wrt finance lessons?

I'm a teacher and have to do PSHE- most teachers HATE it as we have to talk about stuff we don't really know about, have an interest in or have been trained for. e.g. the legal system, drugs, sex ed, bullying, careers, citizenship are just some of the things I have waffled on about this year. Every year it's "schools have to teach this ..." but it falls to a non-expert to do it.
However, I am a maths teacher and feel VERY passionate about financial education and so I have embedded it into the Maths curriculum. I have abandoned the KS3 National Curriculum as it is a joke. It is basically someone who knew a child once and knows what is best for them..... Grrrrr!

I?d love it for parents to take responsibility for their kids .

I don't think most teachers do hate teaching PSHE, I have always loved doing it.

MysticMasseuse had a good point about those who are a bit wealthier not being as financially savvy - if growing up money has never been a problem it is possible that a young adult would never have seen someone taking care with their money. Just putting a card in an ATM and being given money in return.

Lessons about financial awareness (and not just about budgeting etc, but about debt in its forms too) would be useful, I think. 15/16 year olds are just starting out on the world of money (even if it is just spending pocket money on CDs etc) and are in a position to be more receptive to some financial education.

Parents do so much behind-the-scenes, I think some may get used to not discussing financial things with their children. My very liberal and open parents never really spoke to me about budgeting etc, although I do remember them being very careful when I was little and my mum was a SAHM.

It is something I figured out at university. But I went in the days before a university education in itself bought with it enormous debts.

One of the most illuminating (and popular) lessons I used to teach when I was a maths teacher was calculating just how much my (16-18 year old's) students smoking habit cost them a year.

I also, with the brighter ones, would work out with them the best mobile phone deal. They were always seduced by the advertising We would break it down into how many minutes/texts per day that meant, then took out the hours they were sleeping, in class, washing, praying, playing football etc. Eventually the dawning realisation would come that perhaps the cheaper deal or even pay as you go (soo uncool apparantly) worked out much cheaper.

It just used to worry me so much that without financial education (of a type that was relevant to them) these teenagers were sitting ducks for future debt. I used to make them repeat the mantra "If you don't pay attention to the numbers, you are going to get fleeced". Hopefully some if it sunk in.

They sound like great lessons, slug- fancy coming to my school?

I was thinking the same . We have taught similar lessons looking at mobile phone contracts. My school also had familes who were very reliant on provident loans and their ilk, catalogues and places like Brighthouse. we looked at how much things actually cost after you had paid all the interest and then compared with other retailers.

It give the kids practice with their mathematical skills and make them aware of the high cost of debt. Many of these kids had no adult in their immediate family working, you often have no choice but to use loans and catalogues if you are living on benefits. Hopefully they began to realise that a life on benefits or a low income is actually very expensive and that a way out of that is to do well at school.

I have only read the OP and the first replay and I have to ask, although that person probably left ages ago...

"We should be teaching basics like boiling eggs, making spag bol, washing instructions, and how to pay stuff"

I completely disagree, thats for parents/ families/ carers to teach not the curriculum! They are the basic 'soft skills' of survival.

However learning about debt, finances, home accounting is, although also the job of parents, something that absolutely needs to be part of the curriculum.

From a feminist point of view, a lot of girls dont see their mums dealing with finances and tax forms and the like. If they were taught at school then this kind of thing would be second nature and youd have less women relying on men financially.

Feminist point of view aside. A lot of the mess this country is in is down to irresponsible borrowing so training in this area will be key to the future of the country.

Also, my mum was very careful to hide any money worries from us as kids. I dont think its a good idea as money problems are sadly a way of life for most... and head in the sand is never going to be the answer.

Somehow I've grown up to be really sensible with money. I'm not particularly knowledgeable - the two are definitely different! But I am well equipped to find out what I need to know, when I need to know it IYSWIM.

My parents were useless with money, they still are - somehow I took on board the message that I must never ever make the same mistakes!

FWIW we've tried what some PPs have suggested and told my DH's kids how much money is wasted on HP deals and loans - in one ear out the other, for them (and they are representative of the times, I feel) all that matters is having it RIGHT NOW!

Hi,

Its Martin Lewis here.

Thank you for the interesting and informed debate. Just a few points ? hope you don?t mind me interrupting - these are bashed out in the middle of sending my weekly email so forgive any grammer issues

? We need to break the cycle of debt. The UK is second in the world cup of debt after the US, we?re massively endebted. The stigma of debt has been broken as its now virtually compulsory to borrow when you go to university ? and to buy a house. Yet we?ve introduced debt compulsion without ever introducing debt education. Can we really ask an endebted generation to pass the right messages

? What would they be taught? Well firstly its in the hands of PFEG the personal finance education group ? but I?ve been lobbying hard and successfully that it should be real money lessons. My three main ones are 1. A company?s job is to make money. 2. Debt isn?t bad, bad debt is bad. 3. Loyalty doesn?t pay. The govt had been happy with these, indeed itd sponsored my teen cash class guide (its free on my site 40 page guide) to go in every NOTW to help and we were working on a teachers pack so it could go in the lessons.

? Couldn?t I do some videos. Yes I could, and have in fact. Yet the problem isn?t the 40% of schools that do it ? its the 60% that don?t. For me to dedicate some of the time put aside for PHSE to financial education is so important.

While to an educated crowd on here it may sound silly you?d be amazed how many?s people reaction to this is ?I just wished someone had explained to me that store cards aren?t free money when i was 18 ? I didn?t really get it ? nor compound interest.? Of course we wish their parents had, but yu can?t guarantee it, a substantial chunk of the UK is financially illiterate and its time we end that.

When people ask me what the solution to ?bank charges?, ?abusive credit card interest rates?, ?budget airline rip off fees?, ?being told to go to the manufacturer by shops when you?ve bought a faulty product? my real answer is decent education in money and consumer rights.

Companies spend billions of pounds a year advertising, marketing and teaching staff to sell ? isn?t it time we gave our kids buyers trainng.

Hope you don?t my mind two penneth worth.

Martin

Companies spend billions of pounds a year advertising, marketing and teaching staff to sell ? isn?t it time we gave our kids buyers trainng.

this is exactly my point - the info needs to come at the point of sale - Key Facts Illustrations need to paint the whole picture...

a few lessons several years before = wholly inadequate?

Hello Martin.

Agree with your post, I did point out on the first page that we need to teach the difference between bad debt and controlled/useful debt.

I'm a member of your mse site and have found the information on there really useful over the last few years. It has made a big difference in some "interesting" times for my family and I.

What about setting up a not for profit org that employs people specifically to go into schools/hostels etc to give lessons on finance and budgeting? Is that something you would consider or suggest when lobbying the government?
That way, the teachers don't have the extra responsibility plus you have the subject being taught by a specialist.
People like me ( not that I'm angling for a job ) could give their personal experiences as part of case studies etc.

Schools have more important things to do than teach Finance Lessons. They're not a substitute for good parenting and/or life experience.

But sadly daphnedill, as we can see from the state of the economy, parents have not been passing on the right messages as a whole. I agree it would be ideal for children to learn finance at home and I do lead by example with my own children. However, lessons need to be learned from our history and apparently this is one area that parents can tbe trusted in.

Eggy and daphne, where do you stand on the teaching of foreign languages?

Is teaching financial management not more important? There is definitely room in the curriculum. Prepapration for Working Life is already an examined subject in some schools- why shouldn't finance lessons form part of the syllabus?

Eggy, using the foreign language teaching as an analogy, if this were taught at 'the point of sale', it would consist of chucking people a phrasebook on the ferry to France. That would be wholly inadequate.

Your assumption that lessons which happen before an engagement with a subject writes off the efficacy of teaching languages, sex education and any skill teenagers will need in later life.

Martin, my main concern as regards the teaching of finance in schools is that it is not in any way linked with financial institutions or companies- there is a lot of PFI in education at the moment, and this is likely to increase under a tory government. I fear that finance lessons may morph into an horrendous advertising exercise for the banks- what you are saying about educating young people must stick, and no sponsorship from any bank must be involved.

Hi

With regards to the danger of bank sponsorship thats a key isue for me too.

Hopefully its ok to link you to this which is my full piece on why I believe in Financial Education

Financial Education's a must

Which covers all those issues

Putting it in the curriculum would mean schools can devote their own resource to it. The reason banks can leach in at the moment is precisely because its not compulsory.

Martin

Sorry I should've said in the last post - that article was written when compulsory financial education was on the cards - before the plug was pulled.

Thanks for the link, really interesting.

How does the raising of the age of compulsory education from 16 to 18 affect your views?

I see it as making it all the more pertinent, and think that removing it from the curriculum is a catastrophic mistake.

Ps Thanks for the Teen Guide Martin, what age would you reccommend it to out of interest?

Is 11 too young to learn about this subject?

@tehersend - I would say it makes it more pertinent, except i'm 100% in favour regardless so 'more' is impossible

@foureleven - 11 is young, though some of the concepts would work with a bright 11 year old but its really aimed at year 10-11

Martin - Thanks for raising this important subject. I wondered what you think of Young Enterprise - a charity who go into schools to build awareness of personal finance and business? Young Enterprise

@jackstarbright.

In 1988 I believe i was one of the 24 Young Enterprise national finalists

I think young enterprise does a great job however its focus is entrepreneurship and i think we need a dedicated teaching of PF

In many ways entrepreneurship and personal finance are opposites.

Yet this isn't about volunteer groups its about the curriculum. Business studes is a very popular course but pf doesn't exist.

Martin

Oooh, 'ark at Martin. National finalist indeed

Thanks for the info