Labour manifesto launch

[policywonk]

Thought we might as well get this over with

linc - so by your argument, the Tories presided over both boom and bust. Doesn't sound like a startling example of sound financial management to me. Both Major govt. and Brown govt. have been in office during boom and bust, so it's a no score draw. Except that even the most dyed in the wool Tory has to admit that the banking crisis which brought capitalism to its knees was a global phenomenon, which started in the US.

And I know the Tories would love us to forget the last recession, "it's such a long time ago" they say, but it is the case that they still have a very different approach to recession - much more laissez faire than Labour. And that can be a very painful process. That's what makes this fuss they're making about labour's "jobs tax" such an irony - in the recession of the 1980s, the benefits of unemployment were seen to outweigh the economic and social costs. "Maggie's Millions" the unemployed were called. Is Cameron's memory of his own party's history really so short or does he prefer not to remember?

Sorry to harp on about the past, but people's memories are just so short. Does a party's belief system change so radically in 10-20 years? I don't think so.

"Does a party's belief system change so radically in 10-20 years? I don't think so."

Hmm - I think Blair convinced most of us that it can happen virtually overnight. - remember the third way and all that. And, given the quick shuffle to the right I detect in this manifesto, Mandleson's convinced Brown that a bit of value shifting is needed again.

we got married & bought our first house during the early 90s. it seemed that every time we got one step ahead, the conservatives knocked us back two, and we were trying to live according to their 'rules' (married, two incomes, both graduates etc).

i will never vote tory. they just came across as so ridiculously smug & condescending. they just appeared to really not care if people were struggling in poverty, but to think that they deserved it. and dh & i were the kind of 'perfect couple' that you'd expect them to support, but still we suffered.

i know time has moved on, but i still don't see that the tory party has developed that much. i don't think labour is without fault, but i just agree more with their underlying theology.

not able to vote now that we live abroad, but the libdems are gaining more of my respect.

Brock, I think we to distinguish between investment and waste. More money has gone to the NHS. That much is true. But, the value we have received is not proportional to the amount if increased investment waste. Even Labour is now talking about inefficiency savings. The only way they can have identified inefficiency saving is if there are aware of their own waste. And, if that is the case (and obviously it is) why have they not done anything about it?

I think the labour government has good intentions, but they are wasteful and we can no longer afford to trust them with our money (actually we never could afford to trust them... but ah.... hindsight is 20/20).

You can't vote if you live abroad?

if you're a British national, you can still vote if you live abroad! but you are probably too late to sort out the forms now ...

Strix, every government, every organisation can have efficiency drives and businesses always tend to find ways of cutting costs when profits are down.

Doesn't mean they are wasteful by nature.

Most people don't think spending money on school books, buildings, hospitals, nurses, doctors, policemen and women is wasteful.

They just don't like the bureaucracy that comes with it, and every government always vows to do what they can to cut that. Of course they'd like the bulk of the money to go on frontline services.

I think this is a non-argument. So I'll stop arguing . All I'm saying is that I think you're wrong to say Labour is wasteful.

So have they agreed to drop their identity card policy? Surely an area for looking at cutting waste?

Also can someone tell me where I can take advantage of all these "tax loop holes" as the tax man always seems to find me.

I've already posted this on the MN Manifesto thread and it killed the thread. But here we go again!

I think the tax loophole idea is a bit of a non starter. According to this OU article if "your income comes from employment, there is very little scope for avoidance. HM Revenue has it pretty well pinned down."

Jackstarbright - I think I have the edge of killing political threads over you . It must be my well put together arguments.

Ooh Jd - I've just posted you a reply on the LibDem thread. Coincidence or just the two of us posting at the moment?

I think I am so undecided that I was hoping there would someone from the political parties gagging to debate with me. If I was in a political party I would have a few scouts checking out what we are saying.

Yes but weve seen it all before, you cant trust a single word they say. labout will promise you anything you like to get back in power, and its all hollow, empty promises.

lets look at the reality of 14 years of labour rule:

-Deregulating the banks so that building societies can go gamble with the big boys.

-Selling our gold reserves cheap, and flat out lying stating the Bank of England supported the sale. They didn't, they opposed it. Brown lied.

-Allowing europe to govern us - 72% of all UK laws are passed down from Brussels.

-Lying that 10% tax wouldn't affect people - that lasted well didn't it?

-The massive, huge lie about WMD and iraq, how can anyone forget the pack of lies they told us there!!!!

-The biggie... We, today, as a nation, are (at 10.10am) £782,594,789,552 in debt.
That's 782 BILLION POUNDS. This year alone, these idiots will borrow on our behalf a total of £163 billion. Its the biggest national debt in history What a proud record to hold, well done, Gordon and Tony, a fantastic achievement .Labour - a future debt for all.

-And lets not forget the lie that we could have a vote on the EU Constitution/Lisbon Treaty

-The estimate there would be 13,000 immigrants when the actual number was 3 million

-The destruction of your legal and civil rights, such as

• your loss of your right to silence
• your loss of your right to protection from self incrimination
• your loss of habeus corpus and the instigation of detention without trial
• your loss of the right to legal aid
• the doling out of the right to enter your home, without your permission, to 273 different public bodies

• The £8billion raid on our pension funds as almost the first thing Brown did in power

• the wasting of vast amounts of money in effectively lowering our education standards to the point kids in mexico are better educated

• the instigation of a de facto Police State

-the instigation of massive Nanny State interference

• the unfettered obscenity of political correctness and brainlessly applied health and safety laws, interfering in almost every aspect of ordinary life.

The list of labour screwups is almost endless. Why would you want to put them back in power to carry on this dreadful, appalling, record?

I seem to remember that after 18 years "in the wilderness" the Labour Party Manifesto of 1997 stated that they wanted to introduce PR, and they did for elections to the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly. They also had a referendum on whether there should be a Scottish Parliament or a Welsh Assembly.

Unfortunately they got a landslide victory in the 1997 election so they quickly changed their mind about PR for a General Election.

I don't expect on another occasion it would be any different. The Labour Party can have PR or referenda when it suits them but not when the British electorate want them.

"Most people don't think spending money on school books, buildings, hospitals, nurses, doctors, policemen and women is wasteful. "

I think most would agree that these are necessary service which should be funded. The problem is the way Labour wastes money instead of spending it wisely. This is why the conservatives want to give the money to head teachers for them to spend as they see fit. Clear the overhead and give the money to the teachers! Just one example.

So, whilst these services you have listed are all important, the way in which they are funder is certainly not something everyone agrees on.

Has anyone mentioed the NHS IT projects yet? Now those were are wasteful!

Brockyg said

And I know the Tories would love us to forget the last recession, "it's such a long time ago" they say, but it is the case that they still have a very different approach to recession - much more laissez faire than Labour. And that can be a very painful process. That's what makes this fuss they're making about labour's "jobs tax" such an irony - in the recession of the 1980s, the benefits of unemployment were seen to outweigh the economic and social costs. "Maggie's Millions" the unemployed were called. Is Cameron's memory of his own party's history really so short or does he prefer not to remember?

Sorry to harp on about the past, but people's memories are just so short. Does a party's belief system change so radically in 10-20 years? I don't think so.

Beautifully put! I will never forget Norman Lamont saying "If higher unemployment is the price we have to pay in order to bring inflation down, then it is a price worth paying."

Easy to say eh, when it's someone else paying!

I remember well the respossesions during the 90's recession, the tories stood back and did nowt. At least this government have attempted to tighten the rules up so that fewer families end up on the street.

As for waiting lists, I was seen by a specialist within 2 weeks of seeing my GP with suspected cancer. The last time this happened to me, back in the early 90's, it was a 3 month waiting list.

Did anyone see the Kirsty Young show last night, about Thatcher and her belief in the 'family'? Listen to Cameron today and it's clear nothing has changed in the tory party.

Can we afford superfast broadband? It would really help business if we could.

It all looks very 'thought out' but then they are the government so I guess they know what we can afford.

It does seem very safe but what will improve? I like the broadband but what else can we do? I'm not saying that as a follower of one of the other two main parties.