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Politics

Which taxes should Burnham put up?

456 replies

Toohotforwork · 07/07/2026 20:11

It seems pretty clear that in the Autumn we are in for another massive tax rising budget. Starmer has done of the ground work to show what we need to spend and how there isn't any money, I'm sure the "blackholes" were co-ordinated with the new team for messaging. Labour don't have it in them to cut the welfare bill and to be fair the Tories didn't either - so I can't see that changing.

Which taxes would up increase to fund the country properly?

Personally I'd go the easy route and put 1 or 2p on the basic rate of income tax. It would break the manifesto but one short sharp initiative has got to be better than death by a thousand small increases.

I think the care proposals of getting rid of inheritance tax and replacing it with a 10% charge on everyone is very sensible.

Equalising income tax and capital gains tax seems an easy win as well.

OP posts:
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Badbadbunny · 16/07/2026 15:36

Genevieva · 16/07/2026 14:20

If we were to raise the threshold of the higher rate of income tax so that people enjoyed the same spending power as their equivalents had under Tony Blair then it would start at incomes of c.£80,000 a year, not c.£50,000.

The tax free allowance has been raised over the past couple of decades but the higher rate threshold hasn't, hence the "squeezed middle". People on low incomes are paying less tax, but anyone on average wages or above are paying more. It can't go on as the "pips are squeaking".

I'd actually reduce the tax free allowance to a nominal amount, but at the same time, reduce the basic rate of income tax to say 10% and then have 20/30/40% rates. So more people will pay tax, but at relatively low levels, and we'd not have the stupid cliff edges that disincentivise work.

Genevieva · 16/07/2026 16:04

Badbadbunny · 16/07/2026 15:36

The tax free allowance has been raised over the past couple of decades but the higher rate threshold hasn't, hence the "squeezed middle". People on low incomes are paying less tax, but anyone on average wages or above are paying more. It can't go on as the "pips are squeaking".

I'd actually reduce the tax free allowance to a nominal amount, but at the same time, reduce the basic rate of income tax to say 10% and then have 20/30/40% rates. So more people will pay tax, but at relatively low levels, and we'd not have the stupid cliff edges that disincentivise work.

We used to have a 10% rate. I remember being told the thinking was that there was value in everyone feeling that they contributed. The stories took the opposite view, continued by this government, that lifting people on low wages out of taxation by increasing the tax free allowance, and paying for it by increasing taxes on middle income earners, has become the group think.

Badbadbunny · 16/07/2026 16:33

Genevieva · 16/07/2026 16:04

We used to have a 10% rate. I remember being told the thinking was that there was value in everyone feeling that they contributed. The stories took the opposite view, continued by this government, that lifting people on low wages out of taxation by increasing the tax free allowance, and paying for it by increasing taxes on middle income earners, has become the group think.

Ironically it was Gordon Brown who introduced the 10% rate, but then he scrapped it a couple of years later. I thought it was one of the more sensible things he did, and heaven knows why he panicked and scrapped it.

The thing with a relatively high "starting point" and then the cliff edges, is that people make behavioural changes. So someone currently not paying any income tax due to low income is more likely to want to stay not paying any income tax even if they had the opportunity to have a slightly higher income. Makes no sense of course as they'd only pay it on the surplus, but it's a "mindset" thing. Similarly at £50k, £100k etc., where people don't want to go into the next tax bracket, again, it's only on the excess, but again, it's a mentality thing.

(Of course there are also cliff edges where you're actually worse off for a slightly higher income, but that's not as common).

I've got clients who are constantly juggling bank savings accounts to stay within the personal tax free allowance and savings allowance to cover their interest tax free. It's illogical as they'd only pay £20 tax on a surplus of £100 interest over the £18.5k threshold+allowances, but they'd actually "prefer" to earn less interest to avoid paying tax, than earn more and pay just 20% of it to HMRC. The human brain is a strange thing!!

If we had a lower starting point, and lower starting rate and then more gradual increases as income levels rise, there'd not be the same illogical behavioural aspects which are harming the economy.

LlynTegid · 16/07/2026 16:48

I would have pensioners pay a level of NI

Genevieva · 16/07/2026 16:50

Badbadbunny · 16/07/2026 16:33

Ironically it was Gordon Brown who introduced the 10% rate, but then he scrapped it a couple of years later. I thought it was one of the more sensible things he did, and heaven knows why he panicked and scrapped it.

The thing with a relatively high "starting point" and then the cliff edges, is that people make behavioural changes. So someone currently not paying any income tax due to low income is more likely to want to stay not paying any income tax even if they had the opportunity to have a slightly higher income. Makes no sense of course as they'd only pay it on the surplus, but it's a "mindset" thing. Similarly at £50k, £100k etc., where people don't want to go into the next tax bracket, again, it's only on the excess, but again, it's a mentality thing.

(Of course there are also cliff edges where you're actually worse off for a slightly higher income, but that's not as common).

I've got clients who are constantly juggling bank savings accounts to stay within the personal tax free allowance and savings allowance to cover their interest tax free. It's illogical as they'd only pay £20 tax on a surplus of £100 interest over the £18.5k threshold+allowances, but they'd actually "prefer" to earn less interest to avoid paying tax, than earn more and pay just 20% of it to HMRC. The human brain is a strange thing!!

If we had a lower starting point, and lower starting rate and then more gradual increases as income levels rise, there'd not be the same illogical behavioural aspects which are harming the economy.

At the upper end, I know couples who are doctors and have chosen for both parents to work 80% to stay below the £100K annual income, above which thus not only lose their tax free allowance, they’d also lose funded childcare. By both taking a day a week off, the 30 hours childcare covers the three days both of them work. A very sensible decision, given the tax and benefits regime, maybe nice for the kids too, but crackers for the economy.

As an aside, this government is currently paying Nuffield to treat NHS patients, supposedly to clear waiting lists, but this is leaving some NHS hospitals with half empty clinics and theatres not in use. It also impacts their funding, so they are facing financial hardship. It’s crackers. You’d think these deals would only be available when there was a long waiting list.

EmmaOfNormandy · 16/07/2026 16:53

Not a tax, so much, as a charge on social media posting. Maybe a penny a pop.

I'd probably pay £1-£2 a week .... but I can see it flooding the treasury with dosh.

Somersetbaker · 16/07/2026 20:06

100% tax on payments to mp's other than their parliamentary income.No side hustles presenting tv programmes, flogging gold bullion, making speeches. If you don't want to do the work of an mp don't stand for election. And dock their wages every time they don't show up for a vote.

mumumental · 17/07/2026 06:02

Somersetbaker · 16/07/2026 20:06

100% tax on payments to mp's other than their parliamentary income.No side hustles presenting tv programmes, flogging gold bullion, making speeches. If you don't want to do the work of an mp don't stand for election. And dock their wages every time they don't show up for a vote.

👏👏👏

KatiePricesKnickers · 17/07/2026 07:34

They could introduce an exit tax for wealthy people ‘fleeing’ to the UAE, or anywhere else for that matter.
If you have unrealized capital gains on investments, they are taxed as if everything was sold while still resident.
Minimum threshold would apply.

1dayatatime · 17/07/2026 08:06

KatiePricesKnickers · 17/07/2026 07:34

They could introduce an exit tax for wealthy people ‘fleeing’ to the UAE, or anywhere else for that matter.
If you have unrealized capital gains on investments, they are taxed as if everything was sold while still resident.
Minimum threshold would apply.

This is a really good example of how left wing thinking is "emotion based" rather than "fact or logic based".

Firstly the "emotion based" - wealthy people are leaving the UK to avoid paying taxes and should therefore be made to pay a tax for this.

Then let's look at the fact or logic based
How do you prove that people are moving to UAE for tax reasons and not a similar job opportunity.
Is it just people moving to the UAE or what about other countries. Or would you apply it to anyone moving abroad?
Is it only those countries with a lower tax rate than the UK.
What if someone moved abroad to a country with a higher tax rate than the UK - do you give them a tax rebate on leaving?
What if they move abroad for a one or two year contract and then move back to the UK - do you still tax these people. And what if they hate it and move back to the UK sooner or love it and decide to stay.

This is the problem of left wing thinking - on an emotional level people leaving the UK to avoid paying taxes like the rest of us isn't fair and should be taxed to discourage it.

On a right wing thinking - logically and factually it simply wouldn't work, unless you wish to control your citizens to stop them leaving the country altogether. Which brings us round to this exact policy of left wing East Germany before the wall came down.

KatiePricesKnickers · 17/07/2026 10:36

@1dayatatime I’m well right of center with my political views.

The capital gains have been made (on paper at least) while resident in the UK.
Why should they be able to escape CGT on gains made while tax resident in the UK when moving abroad?
No need to over think where anyone is going to, doesn’t matter, they should pay the tax generated on investments while being resident in the UK.
Why should another country benefit?

Packingorprocrastination · 17/07/2026 11:16

And dock their wages every time they don't show up for a vote.

And you can only vote if you show up for the whole debate. And no phones on the chamber to distract them. MPs should not be allowed to live in echo chambers.

1dayatatime · 17/07/2026 11:47

KatiePricesKnickers · 17/07/2026 10:36

@1dayatatime I’m well right of center with my political views.

The capital gains have been made (on paper at least) while resident in the UK.
Why should they be able to escape CGT on gains made while tax resident in the UK when moving abroad?
No need to over think where anyone is going to, doesn’t matter, they should pay the tax generated on investments while being resident in the UK.
Why should another country benefit?

Regardless of your political views, you really haven't thought this one through.

Firstly are you proposing an exit tax regardless of whether someone potentially avoids CGT by say selling a business or a second home. So the young single person moving to Dubai for a job opportunity gets hit with the same exit tax as someone say retiring to Dubai with a business that they intend to sell down?

Secondly you need to be fully resident in Dubai for 5 years in order to avoid CGT in certain circumstances but even then
non residents are still liable for CGT on all UK residential property anyway.
If it's selling a UK business that is physically tied to the UK, for example land, an office or factory then CGT is still liable regardless of how long you have been out of the country.

Either way it's an emotive tax proposal that is unworkable in reality.

EmmaOfNormandy · 17/07/2026 11:48

A few people have noticed that taxing something has the perverse effect of making that something shrink over time.

Think about it personally. If you can make the bit of your salary you are taxed on as small as possible, then you pay as little tax as possible. And this applies to wages, dividends, profits etc. Generally wealth.

The only think that can't shrink when taxed, is land.

Just a fact.

Badbadbunny · 17/07/2026 12:20

EmmaOfNormandy · 17/07/2026 11:48

A few people have noticed that taxing something has the perverse effect of making that something shrink over time.

Think about it personally. If you can make the bit of your salary you are taxed on as small as possible, then you pay as little tax as possible. And this applies to wages, dividends, profits etc. Generally wealth.

The only think that can't shrink when taxed, is land.

Just a fact.

Indeed. I've an interest in the history of tax.

Go back a long time....

Window taxes caused people to brick up their windows and architects/builders to use bigger windows

Brick tax caused architects/builders to use bigger bricks/stones

Property width tax caused architects/builders to build narrower but higher and deeper premises.

You are 100% correct in what you say.

KatiePricesKnickers · 17/07/2026 12:59

@1dayatatime ‘Either way it’s an emotive tax proposal that is unworkable in reality’

I don’t know why you keep saying ‘emotive’.
From Gemini

  1. Residents of Countries with "Exit Tax" or "Departure Tax" Rules
Most countries determine your tax liability based on where you live (residence-based taxation). If you sever your tax residency to move abroad, many of these nations will trigger a "deemed sale" of your assets: Canada: Canada levies a Departure Tax. When you become a non-resident, you are deemed to have sold most of your worldwide assets (excluding Canadian real estate and registered retirement accounts like RRSPs). Australia: Australia deems that you have sold all taxable assets (such as global stock portfolios) except for "taxable Australian property" (like local real estate) the moment you cease to be a tax resident. Most of the European Union (EU): Under the EU's Anti-Tax Avoidance Directive (ATAD), member states must enforce exit taxes on unrealized capital gains. Germany: Imposes an aggressive exit tax (Wegzugsbesteuerung) primarily targeting individuals who own at least 1% of a corporation and have lived in Germany for a certain period. France: Applies to individuals who have been French residents for 6 of the past 10 years and hold substantial stock (valued over €800,000 or owning a 50%+ stake in a company). Austria: Has a very broad exit tax with no minimum asset threshold, triggered once you lose Austrian tax residency. Norway: One of the strictest systems in Europe, taxing latent gains on shares above a basic threshold of NOK 3 million. Japan: Japan taxes departing residents on their global financial assets if they have lived in Japan for more than 5 of the past 10 years and hold financial assets worth ¥100 million (approx. $660,000 to $900,000 depending on exchange rates) or more.

Those countries have made an exit tax work. Maybe existing rules cover a great deal of it, but the UK did not show up in the AI search.

Boomer55 · 17/07/2026 13:08

He knows that any sort of benefit reform will be a struggle. He has said that PIP needs reform with eligibility, but no idea how he’d force it through.

The easy targets will be wealth taxes, land taxes etc.

Vinvertebrate · 17/07/2026 15:10

@KatiePricesKnickers it sounds good but in practice these exit taxes only bite with HNW individuals who also have significant business interests/shareholdings in the country being exited (and in practice, even they can defer liability). There are really not enough HNW people around to move the tax dial. No exit tax is going to target a person with a “normal” house/pension/investment portfolio who just fancies not being mugged by the Treasury for a few years. I’ve done it myself.

NorthXNorthWest · 17/07/2026 15:54

KatiePricesKnickers · 17/07/2026 12:59

@1dayatatime ‘Either way it’s an emotive tax proposal that is unworkable in reality’

I don’t know why you keep saying ‘emotive’.
From Gemini

  1. Residents of Countries with "Exit Tax" or "Departure Tax" Rules
Most countries determine your tax liability based on where you live (residence-based taxation). If you sever your tax residency to move abroad, many of these nations will trigger a "deemed sale" of your assets: Canada: Canada levies a Departure Tax. When you become a non-resident, you are deemed to have sold most of your worldwide assets (excluding Canadian real estate and registered retirement accounts like RRSPs). Australia: Australia deems that you have sold all taxable assets (such as global stock portfolios) except for "taxable Australian property" (like local real estate) the moment you cease to be a tax resident. Most of the European Union (EU): Under the EU's Anti-Tax Avoidance Directive (ATAD), member states must enforce exit taxes on unrealized capital gains. Germany: Imposes an aggressive exit tax (Wegzugsbesteuerung) primarily targeting individuals who own at least 1% of a corporation and have lived in Germany for a certain period. France: Applies to individuals who have been French residents for 6 of the past 10 years and hold substantial stock (valued over €800,000 or owning a 50%+ stake in a company). Austria: Has a very broad exit tax with no minimum asset threshold, triggered once you lose Austrian tax residency. Norway: One of the strictest systems in Europe, taxing latent gains on shares above a basic threshold of NOK 3 million. Japan: Japan taxes departing residents on their global financial assets if they have lived in Japan for more than 5 of the past 10 years and hold financial assets worth ¥100 million (approx. $660,000 to $900,000 depending on exchange rates) or more.

Those countries have made an exit tax work. Maybe existing rules cover a great deal of it, but the UK did not show up in the AI search.

As a counter to Gemini

Chat GPT

As a reply, it's partly persuasive but overstated. The main weakness is the last sentence:

"Those countries have made an exit tax work."

That goes beyond what the preceding evidence shows.

The list demonstrates that many countries have enacted some form of exit tax, but it does not demonstrate that those taxes have been successful or "work" in the sense of achieving their policy objectives.

A good critique would be:

Your examples show that a number of countries have introduced some form of exit tax. They don't show that those taxes have been successful, raised the expected revenue, reduced tax avoidance, or avoided unintended consequences such as capital flight or discouraging investment. Adoption is evidence that a policy exists, not that it works well.

You could also point out that the examples are not directly comparable:

Many only apply to specific assets (e.g. shares).
Several have high thresholds (Japan, Norway, France).
Germany's rules primarily target people with substantial shareholdings, not ordinary investors.
Australia's and Canada's systems contain important exemptions and deferral mechanisms.
The scope and purpose vary considerably between countries.

So grouping them together as if they all have the same broad exit tax is misleading.

The strongest criticism is the leap from "exists" to "works." To justify that conclusion, you would need evidence such as:

revenue raised;
compliance rates;
impact on emigration or investment;
evidence that avoidance was reduced;
economic costs versus benefits.

Without that evidence, "many countries have an exit tax" is a factual observation, but "they have made it work" is an unsupported conclusion.

A concise response could be:

That shows these countries have adopted some form of exit tax; it doesn't show they've made it work. To support that claim you'd need evidence that the tax has met its objectives without causing disproportionate economic costs. Existence isn't the same as success.

==========================================================
Copilot:

As an argument, it's fairly strong because it uses multiple concrete examples and demonstrates that exit taxes are not merely theoretical. However, I think there are some weaknesses in both accuracy and robustness.
Strengths

Correctly identifies that many countries have exit-tax style regimes

Canada's departure tax is real.
Australia's deemed disposal rules are real.
Several European countries do impose exit taxes on individuals in certain circumstances.
Japan has a departure tax on certain high-net-worth residents.

Provides specific thresholds and conditions

Mentioning Germany's 1% shareholding rule.
Mentioning France's asset thresholds.
Mentioning Japan's ¥100 million threshold.

This makes the argument appear evidence-based rather than merely rhetorical.
Accuracy concerns

  1. "Most of the EU" is overstated
The statement:

"Under the EU's ATAD, member states must enforce exit taxes on unrealized capital gains."

is potentially misleading.
ATAD primarily requires exit-tax provisions for companies, not a uniform individual exit tax applying to ordinary citizens. While many EU countries do have individual exit-tax regimes, they vary enormously in scope, thresholds, assets covered, payment deferrals, and applicability.
A critic could fairly say the argument conflates:

corporate exit taxes,
individual exit taxes,
and shareholding-specific regimes.

  1. Austria is presented too broadly
The claim:

"Austria has a very broad exit tax with no minimum asset threshold"

needs qualification.
The scope of assets, reliefs, and treaty interactions matter. Saying it applies whenever residency is lost risks overstating how comprehensive it is.

  1. Germany and France are niche examples
Germany and France actually strengthen a counterargument:

Germany primarily targets substantial shareholdings.
France targets substantial wealth holdings.

These examples show that many exit-tax systems are aimed at wealthier taxpayers rather than everyone.
A sceptic could therefore argue:

"Your own examples demonstrate that most countries do not tax every emigrant. They target specific classes of assets or wealthy individuals."

Missing UK comparison
The biggest weakness is that the argument jumps from:

"These countries made exit taxes work"

to

"Why isn't the UK doing it?"

without addressing that the UK has a different anti-avoidance model.
A robust argument should acknowledge:

"The UK does not generally impose a deemed-disposal exit tax but instead relies on temporary non-residence rules and taxation of UK-situs assets."

Without that acknowledgement, critics can dismiss the argument as comparing unlike systems.
Logical weakness
The statement:

"Those countries have made an exit tax work."

is asserted rather than demonstrated.
To prove an exit tax "works" you would need evidence that it:

raises meaningful revenue,
reduces tax-motivated emigration,
survives legal challenge,
is administratively practical,
does not cause excessive capital flight.

The examples only establish that:

"Other countries have implemented exit taxes."

That is weaker than proving they are successful.

===========================================================

I personally think Norway is probably the best example to look at if you want to understand what the impact of introducing a wealth tax on individuals in the ways you are suggesting. The jury is still out on that one. Some wealthy people and capital have left Norway, but it's too early to know the long term impact.

It's not just wealth leaving that matters. It's also about keeping and attracting entrepreneurs. They don't just pay tax. They build businesses, create jobs and generate future tax revenues. Fewer businesses is likely to mean less of all of those things.

If we're going to tax excessive wealth, it will take far more creativity, skill and precision than a snake oil salesman wielding a sledgehammer while peddling the latest edition of the politics of envy to his acolytes.

PinkFruitbat · 17/07/2026 16:13

If any taxes were to go up it should be on the low rate of income tax, combined with a reduction on the tax free allowance.

The reason for this is that income taxes for low to medium earners are some of the lowest in Europe. Whereas for high earners they are some of the highest.

This means there are far too many who are actually taking more out of welfare and social system than contributing in. The burden to keep the economic show on the road then falls to high income earners.

Alternatively we could simply slash the ridiculous amounts of welfare handed out and take the handbrake off economic growth.

PinkFruitbat · 17/07/2026 16:14

As per my previous post…

Which taxes should Burnham put up?
Which taxes should Burnham put up?
Which taxes should Burnham put up?
Which taxes should Burnham put up?
Which taxes should Burnham put up?
PocketSand · 17/07/2026 17:53

Scrap in work benefits. These are a relatively recent addition and largely ignored in discussions of how to make things better. They both increase the amount paid in welfare and reduce taxable income. Universal credit supports low wages and the housing element supports high rental costs. The beneficiaries are business and landlords. It is ironic that private enterprise is so reliant on state funding of its employees and tenants.

BurntBroccoli · 17/07/2026 18:00

Ending winter fuel allowance apart from those on pension credit as per the original plan.

If you are on 32K you don’t need it.

BurntBroccoli · 17/07/2026 18:02

PocketSand · 17/07/2026 17:53

Scrap in work benefits. These are a relatively recent addition and largely ignored in discussions of how to make things better. They both increase the amount paid in welfare and reduce taxable income. Universal credit supports low wages and the housing element supports high rental costs. The beneficiaries are business and landlords. It is ironic that private enterprise is so reliant on state funding of its employees and tenants.

Yes this would force wages up. There should still be the childcare allowance side though.

Motorbikeshurtmyhead · 17/07/2026 18:06

PocketSand · 17/07/2026 17:53

Scrap in work benefits. These are a relatively recent addition and largely ignored in discussions of how to make things better. They both increase the amount paid in welfare and reduce taxable income. Universal credit supports low wages and the housing element supports high rental costs. The beneficiaries are business and landlords. It is ironic that private enterprise is so reliant on state funding of its employees and tenants.

Only around 40% of UC claimants are in any kind of work and something like 5% of those work 30 hrs or more. And people need to live somewhere. If we want to scrap private landlords we need far, far more social housing. We currently spend something alarming like £3bn a year on temporary accommodation, most of which, to be frank, is totally unsuitable. The current disincentives to private landlords will simply increase that.