The relation of events in Minneapolis to our politics

[Warmlight1]

The way it's gone in Minneapolis- citizens killed and people lying about it- is a cautionary tale for us to make different political choices. The safety of people in the channel is a huge concern but the glib call ' stop.the boats' masks a horrible lack of scrutiny of what that would mean in the hands of a Reform government. How do they feel that is achievable if not under the current policies?
Interested in people's views.

That's a mishmash of a lot of things!

But Obama deported a very high number of people using ICE and didn't have these problems. So deportation of illegals does not have to mean this kind of chaos.

I'm not a Reform supporter btw.

I think we are also deporting people - Reforms promise line in the coming by election is ' We will stop the boats' just that- I can't see how they mean to go about it.

Not quite the question you asked, but I think it illuminates an important moral issue:

• If the Royal Navy committed to sinking all small boats that they encounter, would that reduce the total number of small-boat deaths?

• If yes, should it do it?

(My answers are a bit fence-sitty: on 1, I think quite possibly it would. On 2, I’m not certain what I think, but I think those who say “obviously not that’s abhorrent” need to explain why).

Stipulation for 1 is that the Navy is not actively trying to kill, and it then makes decent efforts to try to save those in the boats it sinks, but that nonetheless the policy signifiant raises the chance of dying on any given trip (thus, the idea being, deterring trips and saving lives overall).

It's hazardous turning boats around and I don't think the navy want to do it particularly.
But I believe the boats would keep coming because of the slim chance of getting through.
In relation to other proposed measures what about the impact of building swathes if detention centres?
We have overcrowded prisons- won't the two get mixed up? It's a. Problem which never abates. The more detention facilities the less human rights the more people you lock up . Pretty soon as in the US it won't matter who it is.

@Warmlight1 "Pretty soon as in the US it won't matter who it is."

are you referring to the situation they have now?

Why are people obsessed with the idea that things which happen in the US have some kind of bearing on what happens in the UK?

We are two very different countries.

The fact that apparently anyone is getting shot and it's covered by the authorities. Once the mechanisms are there - guns- detention- they will be abused. It takes huge resources and control to enact all this stuff it's massively expensive to maintain over time and Reform aren't interested in the human rights of those they want to incarcerate. I'm convinced we would move very quickly under reform to the death penalty.
These are not issues which are getting thoroughly interrogated.

Well you say that but look at Yaxley Lennon trying to find Jesus in an attempt to emulate the US far religious right. - it's the fact they want to copy America. All the Reform bots online are on message about supporting Trump.

You're throwing together a bunch of unrelated things in order to scaremonger.

There isn’t really much difference between actively trying to kill and doing something that you know has a very high chance of killing someone. Legally or morally.

Most people making the journey know that there is a significant chance of dying doing it. Making that chance higher is not likely to have as much effect as you think it will. People take risks every day thinking the consequences won’t happen to them.

What we will do is give moral injury or mental health problems to the Royal Navy personnel. Not that I think you could force any individual officer to do it. Nuremberg showed that I was ordered to isn’t a valid defence.

@Warmlight1 "Once the mechanisms are there - guns- detention- they will be abused."

The reason I'm talking about Obama is that all those mechanisms were there, millions were deported, and situation was not what you were worried about.

So what you're expecting to happen is that Reform will install an armed force - a process that would take a very long time - and then immediately jump to behaving as the worst have done under the current regime in the US.

i'm just using the example of Obama to point out that there is another way. It's a hell of a jump from what we have now to actually get to what has happened in the US.

I think so. The reason being- Reform have no experience of government and are quite capable of being led by their own marketing. The example being their basic mistakes in this campaign. Their vague promises to ' lock up more criminals' - well - where exactly?
They would almost instantly get overwhelmed