Ukraine and Russia

[dwordle]

I'm getting increasingly frustrated by NATO, Russia is constantly testing our resolve and despite our threats there's only one thing Putin will understand and that's a real show of force. NATO is the strongest force on the planet but what let's this down is our inability to make a decision.

We have pledged support for the Ukraine and the conflict is largely due to NATOs presence around the borders of Russia. So it's only right we step up and offer military assistance....even if it's just naval and air force....that alone would like tip the balance in Ukraines favour and force Putin to at least pause it's conflict.

Russia won't use nuclear weapons, I say this because if it was going to it would have already.

Remember the objective won't be invading Russia, but more about removing Russia from the Ukraine. It may well involve striking key targets inside Russia and that will include Russia's ability to strike back.

Even without America NATO massively out numbers a heavily weakened Russian Navy, Army and Air Force. On paper the Royal Navy out guns the Russian Navy, not by numbers but by ability and technology. Numbers won't win a war at sea or land it's all about technology.

We can strike targets deep inside Russia, we have technology in the Atlantic that tracks Russian subs and helicopters equipped with sub killing technology. Russia would struggle launching any attack from the sea. On the ground Putin would struggle also, no air support, massively out of date tanks compared to a hugely hi tech military using state of the art air defence, air support as well as some of the best trained people in the world.

So what you would see in the initial hours would be precise strikes removing Putin's ability to defend, produce and retaliate. After that air support would destroy swathes of Russian hardware forcing a retreat.....our ground forces would be barely needed

Fact check.:

We don't have surface to air missiles stationed all over Britain (the last significant medium/long range UK based SAM system was Bloodhound and as I recall it that went end of the cold war)....

Probably the best all round SAM system UK has is the PAAMS system onboard the type 45 guided missile destroyers (we have 6 of those, in various states of servicability), on any given day the servicable ones may or may not be in position to provide partial coverage of a small part of the UK, they are often deployed to other parts of the world it would be down to luck.

FWIW we don't have many fighters either...

Ukraine lost the war... The sooner we stop burning money on war mongering and spend more on infrastructure the better.

Russia stockpiled oil from Iraq when the oil price dropped in 2015. They have oceans of oil they can sell to China and India. So, sanctions and the threats from the EU and the Us are ineffective.

The EU expansion eastwards and allowing Eastern European countries to become EU members is what caused the war in Ukraine.

Ukraine isn't in the EU.

@Leavesfalling

Ukraine isn't in the EU.

Two answers to that.

FIRST

Not yet, but want to be in the future. There lies the issue. Russia does not want to be ring fenced by the EU or NATO. So, they are preventing it.

A peace deal, if there ever is one, will be conditional that Ukraine never becomes a NATO member. If they do, then WW3 is a certainty, with the EU being wiped out first. Trump is aware of that. Hence he is encouraging a peace deal.

SECOND

As Ukraine are not in the EU, why are the EU supporting them? More significantly why is the EU buying energy from Russia? Does funding both combatants at the same time not mean the war will continue forever or up to the time when the donors are bankrupt?

Russia does not want to be ring fenced by the EU or NATO. So, they are preventing it.

Have you looked at a map recently....

Russia is probably less "fenced in", as you put it, by the EU than the UK is.

That doesn't give the UK an excuse to go to war with France.

They see having NATO on it's western border is more of a problem, always have done, hence they were quite happy to occupy a big chunk of eastern europe for decades..

Switzerland is literally surrounded by the EU all along its border yet it doesn’t seem to mind. Likewise apart from its border to Austria all other countries around it are in NATO. If Austria were to apply to join NATO would Switzerland go to war with them? Of course not.

Like PP said Russia is massive and doesn’t need to worry about being surrounded. I don’t see the advantage to Russia in Ukraine being in or out NATO apart from invasion and annexation. NATO is a defence pact not aggressive.

The Soviet Union fell in the last century along with the Warsaw Pact.

Russia is already "ring fenced" by the EU and has been for decades. Look at the map. The EU is an economic alliance and Russia was once hoping to joint it and NATO..under Putin!

NATO was set up to defend against a Russian attack. A non member has been attacked by Russia....so membership seems a logical thing to do! Hence Finland and Sweden joining because of Russia.

The EU is supporting a rules based order that requires countries not to invade others. Russia has always been a problematic country invading on all sides. Including China.

WW3 will only happen if China is involved. And as mentioned China has beef with Russia historically over land Russia pinched.

Russia is having trouble wiping out non nuclear Ukraine. Europe does have a few nukes of its own so hopefully that will continue to act as a deterrent.

@Leavesfalling
@RoamingToaster
@notimagain

It’s just been on BBC news. Putin stated EU and NATO expansion Eastwards is the reason for war in the Ukraine.

Oh my God! Breaking news! He’s obviously going to blame Europe. I’m pretty sure he’s said this before. And of course Putin would never lie would he? 😂 He said he wasn’t involved in the Sailsbury attack. He said all his opponents just fell from windows. And many more lies.

What reason did Finland and Sweden give for joining NATO? They wouldn’t have joined if Russia hadn’t invaded Ukraine.

No. Its because his regime is failing and he needs a distraction. And it's creating Greater Russia.

That's as maybe...and how does it go?Something like "he would say that wouldn't he".

For multiple decades one of the standard gripes of the Russian leadership (and the Soviet leadership before them) was that Russia was surrounded.

Now in military terms a few decades back if you took a suitable map you could just about see their POV if you assumed the US was definitely tied into NATO and China was definitely hostile to them....now with Trump as POTUS, Putin talking to the Chinese leadership on a regular basis and North Korean troops fighting for Russia in Ukraine it all looks a bit different and the paranoia a bit suspect.

As for the EU - they are/or were until Russia invaded Ukraine, primarily an economic power that certainly didn't surround or ring fence Russia.

None of the above is an excuse for Russia going around invading independent nations, it looks like a plain old land grab with a side element of Putin wanting to restore the Russian empire.

And Putin is to be trusted?

He’s a warmongering idiot with no goal but to destroy as much as he can.

So you believe the headline news? It has nothing to do with NATO. And everything to do with natural resources in East Ukraine.

It wasn't NATO that started the conflict. If anything Russia are just using it as an excuse to invade. The Americans selling arms to the Ukraine was probably more of an issue that NATO for Russia.

The war in the Ukraine has been going on long before the invasion, Russia has been trying to destabilise the Ukraine for over a decade. There have been fighting between pro Russian militia and the Ukraine alone certain borders. Look at the annexation of Crimea. Why do you think Trump has been talking about elections in the Ukraine....why isn't Trump talking about elections in Russia and why opposition end up in prison.

If the Ukraine falls then actually it's us that should feel threatened. Russia will rebuild it's military and when it's ready look at other countries that it views as Russian. It will be a thorn in our side for generations.... meddling in elections, murdering civilians on foreign soil. If you look at the long list of previous Soviet countries then we could be looking at a very serious problem.

Failure to stand up now will only mean more bloodshed in the future. My opinion is while Russia is losing we should simply finish the job and remove Putin from the Ukraine. Putin would be finished and there maybe a slight chance the person who replaces him will be more moderate