If Labour raises taxes what will you think?

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Typing on my phone so not sure I can do a poll? But, if the government raises income tax or NI at the budget, will you think:

A - let’s get real, they had no other choice
B - those duplicitous / inept bastards

I understand all this.

I am giving an example to point out how important it is to consider individual incentives when crafting policies and rules.

Some of the electorate are as bad as the government. Many of them are baying for blood of the 'wealthy'. The wealthy it seems is anyone earning over £45k per year. Over last few weeks on MN - if you go out to work for for non altruistic reasons, own a home, god forbid you have paid that mortgage off by the time you retire or benefit from house price inflation, have a private pension, privately educate your child or are not disabled you are no better than Satan!

The reality is we have become a “blame” culture. It starts with the politicians always blaming someone else, especially the “other” party.

The reality is that the majority of the population now does not pay their way on any long term basis. It is a combination of low wages and longer living and a culture of the State owes me and “incentives” should not really be coming into it. Everyone from top to bottom wants something back and to game the system and blame someone else. That is not a sustainable culture.
So if lots of young people opt out and move to Dubai etc it really is not a massive surprise. And time and again, Labour supports will state the rich leaving is overegged. But it is not just the “rich” we need, we need everyone to chip in and do their bit to the best of their ability. And that definitely includes the elderly who are costing a bomb as well for the whole of society. It is fantastic the NHS is so good at keeping people alive, but it comes at a huge long term cost for society. It should not be seen as a problem, rather a good thing that we all can live longer and hopefully enjoy non working time for longer and education for longer. But it does mean that the years working need to be productive for all and perhaps working part time for longer as we age and having a side hustle rather than just expecting the state pension and a free NHS and putting our feet up.

Productivity is not just someone “working” a job though. It is also putting all your assets to work productively. So if I live as an early 60s something in a huge house paying a lot of gas etc, it really is better for society if I downsize, take the capital out, invest it and pay tax on that. If I for example lend via platforms to small businesses in the UK or become a landlord who is responsible. These are all things that are actually “productive” and the green eyed monster is spoiling that. Of course, anyone who wants to and can afford it should stay in their house etc, but in places like the US, people do tend to think bigger. The Government needs to change the rhetoric and encourage everyone to think and invest and hustle as much as they can. Only then will we all become productive, including all our assets.

@PinkFruitbat

If your NI is £5k+ you are earning £150k a year (or more). That should enable a good private pension and to retire earlier than 67?

The point being made was that higher earners are subsidising those on lower incomes. The maximum state pension is currently £230.25 per week regardless of how much NI you have paid in the qualifying years. However, people want to tax higher earners even more.

That’s a risky approach as it incentivises people to leave the UK which reduces the tax take for the treasury. In 2024, almost 11,000 millionaires left the UK. The forecast for 2025 is 16,500.

you will still have access to the NHS, a bus pass, WFA and a pension that will pay until you die, state run care homes which are cheaper than private care homes and a host of other services

There are very, very few “state run” care homes, none of which are available to anyone with the money to pay. Why shouldn’t someone who has paid NI for 45 years and tax for over 50 years - and will continue to do so until they die - have access to the NHS when they need it? I personally have made virtually no demand on it for 72 years, it’s not unreasonable to expect to access it if I need it in the last few years of my tax paying life.

The Government needs to change the rhetoric and encourage everyone to think and invest and hustle as much as they can. Only then will we all become productive, including all our assets.

Its harder to raise taxes for the government to squander if they don't have villains.

Those are all good suggestions but being productive in your latter years could also mean minimising your burden on the state, living in the home you have paid for and funding your own careers, or volunteering, contributing to your community or wider society in financial and non financial ways whilst ensuring that you stay healthy and active for as long as possible. Nobody should have to move before they are ready. Many people would like to downsize but there is a shortage of appropriate homes for the elderly to downsize into from a practical perspective, it can also be really expensive.

Cognitively many people are not going to be able to hustle in their latter years so the above is one way they can minimise their burden on the state and have some quality of life. If they get to a certain level of decline they move into a home and they sell their home to fund their care.

@Araminta1003

Good point about the blame culture. Every time there is a new government, all we hear is:

“its the mess we inherited from the previous government”

Maybe it’s the reason the turnout for general elections is declining?

Who said you shouldn't have access to it? You still will have, hopefully. I fully believe in NHS.

Look in other countries people sell their own large house and build a suitable smaller home for themselves on a plot. That would be one example of taking things into your own hands. Or sell your house and build three bungalows on it! Whatever, that is the type of thinking I am trying to get at where people do not just sit back and go, or there is nowhere to downsize too! And the State should look after me, because I paid x y and z over donkeys years.
If there is pride in being entrepreneurial and thinking outside the box and that is celebrated culturally, that counts for a lot. Sometimes you just have to not give a damn what your nimby neighbours think who have been brainwashed by some of the cultural attitudes largely prevalent across a section of society here. It really is an underlying values issue. It is also why I personally welcome loads of hardworking immigrants into the country from cultures where it is more of an embarrassment to sponge of the State if you really do not have to. We need to reprogramme people to think what they can add to the pot and how they can look after themselves not the other way round. Now I have no idea of how to do that, but if we have dirty politicians helping themselves to freebies left right and centre and blaming others constantly (which we do), there really is no hope in hell of ever getting out of this cycle.

A

I agree with this. We’ve been getting away with it really and look where we’ve got too.
i also think triple lock needs to go in favour of families with children , welfare bill also needs to be tackled.
And… we are just going to have to work longer.

The vast majority of people end up paying for their care either at home or in a care home. You are assessed within an inch of your life and the amount of money left over to live off is state benefit level if you have care at home. We have the lowest pension’s in Europe and also most people who need help if they are made redundant aren’t entitled to anything apart from the basic benefit as their partner works or they have savings and investments.

I actually worry that people don’t save enough and will fall into frightening poverty as they think the safety net is higher than it is. The media lies to us about this. It wasn’t that long ago other countries were getting involved in the poverty of our elderly and sending food parcels. We were coming across to other nations as third world. That’s why the triple lock and pension credit were brought in. We were shamed into it.

The Government should start officially reporting on the total value of inheritances left to descendants annually. You will see it is easily in excess of 100 billion annually and rising.

@Araminta1003 I have not inherited one penny. Neither has dh. However, if I were to go under the no. 29 bus tomorrow I’d rather like my dcs to inherit my money.

What sort of level of inheritance tax are you thinking of?

You do realise that if a very punitive percentage were introduced that would only realise short-term gains? People would off-load their money, not save and the tax take from this would not be what you hope.

A

Isn't that what labour did? Vote for us everything will be better and no tax rises. What could possibly go wrong?

@MaturingCheeseball - I would also like my DC to inherit some of my wealth and as I have 4, I am even more keen for them to get something.
However, I think I would be happy to share a small percentage with the State. It is about being reasonable, I think 40% is way too much, but surely we can all hand over 10% above 50k up to a million. I mean would it really hurt anyone so badly to pay back into the NHS and state pension for future generations. Or have tiers depending on how many children you have.
We all know there are many many billions coming in the next 30 years and if people want to insist on the NHS and the triple lock, inheritances it is! As we will all be dead, even if we would like to pretend we are immortal, it really won’t matter to hand over a small percentage.

Or by all means, 10% of inheritance into a social care fund. If that would make people happier and give them increased security. I do understand why people want a small guaranteed income from the State. But we all have to pay for us all living longer and medical advances somehow. It has been a ticking time bomb and politicians just keep lying to stay in power and tell people what they want to hear.

10% of inheritance on whoch tax has already been paid and to go into a social care fund when we will be paying for our own ruddy social care, as we have done fkr educarion and health because what the state provides is sub-optimal. Not on your nellie.

What I wonder is how people looked adter their elderly relatives prior to the 1970s before care homes and social care took off.

People did not live as long before 1970 and not all women worked! That is what happened. It is not affordable and the vast majority have not paid their way. The State is spending 18-19k per person in the entire country every year.

What I wonder is how people looked adter their elderly relatives prior to the 1970s before care homes and social care took off.

Put the responsibilities on their daughters / daughters in law mainly, I think. I know my mother remembers her grandfather moving in to their (small) house for her mother to care for him - she didn’t work out of the home in the daytime, so fitted in elder care around childcare.

I think generally people didn’t need care for as long, either. And of course families tended to be bigger and more local.

The average stay in a nursing home is just 18 months.

What I wonder is how people looked adter their elderly relatives prior to the 1970s before care homes and social care took off.

Most people died far younger then, @RosesAndHellebores, many men in particular within a couple of years of retiring.

Three of my great grandparents, born in the 1880s lived into theor 80s. Cared for by working women. They died in the 1960s. Going back through my family tree, amny lived to their 70s and 80s going back to about 1730.

There is also the fact that if far, far more women work now, that extrapolates to far, far more people paying tax.

Perhaps living standards need to fall and the state may need ro ourchase the btls that will come up due to tighter regulatuons and less tax relief.

Not everyone is a burden on the state and I reiterate my point about every individual having a log of credit and debit. Perhaps ultimate estates could then be charged for what's been used.