If Labour raises taxes what will you think?

[functioningagain]

Typing on my phone so not sure I can do a poll? But, if the government raises income tax or NI at the budget, will you think:

A - let’s get real, they had no other choice
B - those duplicitous / inept bastards

If the triple lock going brings down the sovereign debt, it needs to go! That is the priority.
We really need to go productive above all else. We cannot keep pandering to one part of society.
I said it on the other thread. If we are boosting the NHS, we are already doing our bit for pensioners. We cannot keep throttling the young.

Of course the Tories didn't raise taxes on a year on year basis did they.

Oh no wait!

www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/03/06/taxes-soared-record-high-14-years-tory-rule/

www.spectator.co.uk/article/ten-of-the-worst-tory-tax-hikes-since-2010/

That's just 2 articles at glance. From The Daily Telegraph and The Spectator. Not exactly well known leftist publications.

My parents are able to manage ok on their pensions. But there seems to be an idea that they have been lucky in life. When they were children it was war not covid that cast a shadow over their lives. The country was in a state following war with housing in high demand meaning many lived in substandard houses or prefabs. The start of their working lives in the 1970s had huge turmoil, three day working weeks, interest rates reached 17%, and through much of their working live unemployment was very high. Only around 10% were able to go to university. The idea that they had a blessed start in life compared to today’s young is just a myth. Some may have benefitted from final salary pension schemes and property booms but that is far from all. Over 30,000 lost their pensions in the Maxwell scandal, and millions of other final salary pension holders either lost their pensions or had then substantially cut when their schemes collapsed/were wound up with insufficient assets.

I do think the triple lock needs to be looked at again, but pensioners as a group are very vulnerable because most of them can’t do anything to improve their situation.

It is about choices though. The poorest pensioners should get pension credit. AI can actually potentially save the NHS and make it more efficient. If we do not get a grip of public finances via productivity investment then the NHS will likely go long term.
In the long term interests of the country, is it not better to limit the state pension marginally so that those who really do not need it (there are plenty) get slightly less? We basically have to convince investors that we have a grip on our public finances long term to get a reasonable rate of borrowing.
We cannot keep taxing actual workers through the roof who stop having children etc, we need to rebalance things and improve productivity. We need to invest in the young becoming more productive as well to support us all when we are old. Personally, I would choose a functioning healthcare system for the elderly over triple lock, any day. The worst for the elderly would be if they had to actually pay for healthcare themselves. It is completely unaffordable in many countries.

You’re preaching to the converted but the WFA debacle clearly indicates that public opinion doesn’t agree with you. The opposition and right leaning media would make hay with it.

A

@blossomtoes - I do not care about public opinion but what is right for the country in the long term.

We do not even know yet whether Farage will pander to the young or the old in the next election. He may well just use algorithms and social media plugs to get to the young and ditch the elderly entirely. He will do whatever he needs to get into power anyway. The more Labour run the country into the ground financially, the easier his job will be. That is all I care about at this point.
So do we want a long term productive country for all with good values or do we want a tax haven run by Farage & Co and a US vassal state?
Also, I want a closer relationship to the EU to make things harder for Farage as well and to piss him off.

Watch people modify their income drawdown to sit just under that threshold…

So what, people modify their behaviour anyway. Retirees should not have access to more money than full time working families. It is bad for society. They do not need it.

So you’d limit what people should live on according to age and procreation status? Even when it’s their own money?

How do you know retirees don’t need the money? Do you know the personal circumstances of every single pensioner?

I’m not sure what you mean here, do you mean it should be controlled in some way?

@LaserPumpkin - this is about public finances and the burden and spending too much and where the spend should go. The spending on NHS for the elderly and the state pension is too high. It is bankrupting the country and affecting long term productivity. That is all we need to know. It is not personal.

We could just rob all their money, pension and assets and give them pocket money? Pretend we live in a communist eutopia?

No, that is not what I meant. If we are in too much debt and spending billions and billions on NHS to support an elderly population and triple lock and get ourselves into a massive debt spiral where we cannot invest in the future, then we need to start with curtailing the triple lock first and then means test the state pension later on. It is what it is. I am happy to give up my state pension if I am rich enough to do it when I retire, which is not that far off. I am willing to do that to save the NHS because I believe it is more productive to do that, long term, with an ageing demographic.

People need to ask what is better. Means test the state pension or not receive it at all until you are 75 plus because that is where it is going.

Personally, I think we should make the pensioners live with their adult children. Nothing would incentivise parents to hot house their children and instill a good work ethic quite like the thought of having to live out their elder years in a shared bedsit them. Win-win.

Means test the state pension or not receive it at all until you are 75 plus because that is where it is going.

I’d personally go for the later State pension, but not increase the age that you can access a private or workplace pension. Then you know you have to cover yourself for however many years of retirement before the State pension kicks in.

Why shouldn’t they if they have earned money over a lifetime and saved? It would also mean nobody should even own their own home if you want older people not to have access to more assets as that is how mortgages work. And if they don’t have access to those sorts of assets (because they spent them when they were younger) then the state would have to pay for all care costs.

I have seen a lot of people post on Mumsnet that older people are hogging homes that are needed for families and that they should downsize.

I swear some posters don’t believe that they will ever be older.

(And no, I am not a pensioner)

The likely outcome of removing the SP from those who don’t need it, but keeping it for those who do; is effectively rewarding those who have failed to make provision and penalising all that do.

You could scrap the SP and simply provide welfare pensioner UC to give them a minimum basic income. You could do that but again it is rewarding those who may have chosen to do nothing with there lives. (There will always be a minority who genuinely need help, but we all know the current setup looks after way more people than that.

My MIL is ‘hogging’ a family home, it would be great if she could downsize as she is living in only two downstairs rooms (we’ve blocked access to the kitchen for safety) but is no longer capable of moving. She is much too frail. Don’t worry, you probably won’t have long to wait.

Eh? I am not arguing that she should have to downsize - quite the opposite!

What you have to remember is, most pensioners have been young. They have struggled and worried but all this generation see is a well off fat cat pensioner, when in fact, they have worked hard, raised a family and been in dire straits just as the young of today, but that seems to have been ignored. What you aso need to remember is that if means testing of the state pension does happen, when the time comes, this generation of working people will be subject to the same rules. Be careful what you wish for.

UK state pension is low compared to countries like; Germany, France and Spain. However, as taxes are higher in those countries, it follows logically that benefits would be higher too.

The state pension of 65 for men and 60 for women was introduced in 1908 and not adjusted until 2010. Too late.

Had pension age risen in line with increasing life expectancy and contributions increased slowly over a period the same 100 years period, nobody would have noticed.

@Araminta1003

Retirees should not have access to more money than full time working families. It is bad for society. They do not need it.

Before people retire, they too will most likely have been in full time working families. So, your argument fails.

Also, be aware that state pension is subtracted from the individual’s tax code. This results in more tax being applied to any income people may have in addition to the state pension.

The state does not “have” to do anything, not free health, not free care, not free state pensions. The state can only provide as much as it can borrow and raise through taxes and has to strike a balance between keeping different groups happy. If the demographic has shifted such that the elderly are costing too much and there are too many of them, compared to active workers, then they also have to put their hands in their pockets. And crying about votes and stamping their feet won’t do long term either. It is about striking a balance for all.
And of course people should keep their homes. But whether the State scraps the NHS ultimately, or charges per square foot of supposedly hogged house or scraps the state pension - it will all eventually happen if the balance has shifted.

What you have to remember is, most pensioners have been young.

I think you'll find they all have. 😂