If Labour raises taxes what will you think?

[functioningagain]

Typing on my phone so not sure I can do a poll? But, if the government raises income tax or NI at the budget, will you think:

A - let’s get real, they had no other choice
B - those duplicitous / inept bastards

All of these threads end up with the same rehashed gripes and squabbles. I can’t spend the time posting everything I said on this other thread a few days ago, but here’s a link to it for anybody interested in potential solutions rather than the same old arguments that get us nowhere:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5435779-aibu-income-tax-rise?page=1

Of course I understand that money is only part of what we get out of work, and that we all choose our jobs for our own preferred balance of what this job gives us compared to other jobs we could do or else not working at all. Eg salary, other perks (eg festival organisers seeing the bands), job satisfaction, type of work (eg outdoors/people-focused), working conditions, number of hours, flexibility, ease, convenience, location, commute, personal ambition, development opportunities etc.

And obviously people will accept less of one benefit (eg salary) for more of another (eg job satisfaction).

That's not exactly rocket science or hard to understand.

Oh, and it's not better or morally superior to choose job satisfaction over salary:it's just personal preference. Many people would hate my job, but there's no job I would prefer - otherwise I'd switch. But relaxing with my family in the garden for the same salary would be preferable.

But you said
In reality many people’s motivation to work is not that they’re better off than they would be on benefits

It's a delusion to imagine that a significant number of people would choose to work instead of take benefits if that left them no better off.

For most people, their motivation to work is exactly to be better off than they would be on benefits

Otherwise they would take the benefits and volunteer for 40 hours a week in a role which gave them even more satisfaction (a job which didn't need to pay a salary could be tweaked to their preferences and made even better than one which was constrained by having to justify the cost of the salary).

Which for most part, benefit claimants don't.

You're utterly dillusional.

I’m not. Why is not thinking money is the be all and end all delusional? It’s really fortunate for you that others think differently or we would have no public services at all.

So those who work in public services don't care about pay? When they go to work, its just altruism.
Why are they always going on strike then? 😂

A but we need some transparency on where this money is going and an overhaul of some of our benefits system

Yes funny that.

Try reading what other people are writing.

No one has said that money is the be all and end all.

We have said that the reason people work is in order to be better off than they would be on benefits.

It is your assertion "many people’s motivation to work is not that they’re better off than they would be on benefits" that is delusional.

You breadheads really, really hate anyone not being like you, don’t you?

B They are duplicitous bastards Because
Starmer and Rayner organised the wage increases to railway workers and did not require any improvements to productivity.
Then, to pay for it, they took the Winter Fuel Allowance with no notice and no explanation with only a few weeks notice.
They gave similar wage increases to doctors.
They say we need growth but then raise taxes to penalise business.
The raising of Thresholds for NI was spiteful in discouraging the employment of Part Time workers.
Do what families do when money is short. Spend Less

A - but that was always clear even before the election.

But also B - because they haven't manged anything well at all - and they still refuse to have a grown up conversation with electorate - tax rises and spending cuts are needed and it will fucking hurt - and it will have a huge bloody impact on many of us - so stop pretending otherwise.

I've read that they are going to need to raise another £40 billion of tax rises, just like they did last year. They've taxed businesses with the NI rise, which is now feeding through into the economy with higher prices and inflation and fewer jobs, especially entry level and part time, and rising unemployment which all leads to lower growth ..... and the need to raise taxes

So when they raise our taxes on Nov 26, we will have less money to spend in the economy, causing reduced growth and investment, and companies will rationally react by cutting investment, jobs etc

It's a vicious circle - which will keep on going and this thread will reappear next year around now as the government wring their hands about how they pay for their profligate spending and further tax rises are needed

There's never any talk about improving productivity in the public sector just continued above inflation spending. It's unsustainable. Ultimately the markets will have their say as our debt levels become unsustainable (if they aren't already)

@Bigfatsquirrelyep they got it wrong last time so despite declaring it a one off have to come back for more. And a spiral kicks off

Breadhead, I hadn't heard that one before!

No, we just hate people talking blatant nonsense. We get enough of it from the current Labour government and have no patience for more.

Breadhead is a 70s term, but it is in the dictionary, insult for greedy capitalists who sell out.
More interesting though: “Qu”ils mangent de la brioche” (Marie Antoinette), widely misinterpreted as “let them eat cake” (Brioche is actually more bread than cake). Used to symbolise the disconnect between the aristocracy and the poor.

B we have to live within our means not try and take more money from others

B. Personally I will be devastated because this is the first month I’ve had money left at the end and I earn £47k ffs.

secondly I don’t see how this will help the economy as the disposable income margin is so narrow for most people. Loads of businesses will buckle surely. Especially food places.

Problem is there are huge swathes of society who now have no experience of why work is important. It's not just money - agreed. It's pride, purpose and feeling useful. So many of our jobs are just not what I think of as good useful jobs. And the ones that are are so badly paid no one want to do them. We've lost the art of good work in this country.

Pretty sure we work far long hours with far higher expectations than our parents ever did (boomers born late 1940s/early 50s). We are expected to work 10-12 hour days quite routinely. My parent both had a nice middle class life on a 9-5 pretty much, at all times. Nobody ever encroached on their time off either. Perhaps things have changed since Covid, but definitely not at the professional level. Since the advent of email/internet, it became an expectation to be responsive round the clock to clients. Also shops open longer, GPs etc, it is far more of a 24/7 culture now than it was in the past.

I actually think that Labour's taxation policy is not about raising tax revenues but simply hating the wealthy.

So they knew that VAT on private school fees would never raise enough tax revenue to pay for the additional teachers promised (it is actually looking like it will actually cost money). Instead it was about being seen to bash the rich.
Similarly removing the non dom tax status actually costs tax revenue- they leave.
The NI tax on businesses slows the economy and reduces employment- but it bashes the rich.

In short Labour don't care if the poor get poorer so long as the rich don't get richer.

The Labour Party will though surely have a survival instinct and not want to be finished for decades to come, so the bond markets breathing down their neck are surely a big concern by now, regardless of the ideology of some of their members. So whatever they do, that will be at the forefront, it would be for anyone vaguely sensible. If it looks like spending is going to bankrupt the country, it has to be reigned in, regardless of ideology and “austerity” being a supposed dirty word. It is not really a choice. If the triple lock/welfare spending is unaffordable and tanks the currency/increases borrowing costs over and above what delivers growth on every pound spent, then that will have to prevail.

We also didn't have 53.3% of individuals living in households that were net recipients of government spending. (i.e. They get back more than they put in)

Therefore many of us, see less of the benefit. The inevitable outcome of socialism.

@Dbank @Araminta1003
You both make prescient points.

DH and I have never worked 9-5 and are in our mid 60s. Similarly, my parents: dancer and chemical engineer; DH's electrical engineer and deputy head. My grandparents were farmers and worked from 5am until 6pm for much of the year, including Saturdays and Sundays.

The 53%, net recipients, were implemented in 1997 with the introduction of tax credits (which we never did). That created a dependent working and white collar class, allowed employers not to raise wages/salaries and was a key factor in the exponential increase in house prices. I really hope history will look back in anger at the quiet economic destruction wrought by the Blair Government. That money made people feel good and kept them voting at the expense of those funds being directed to the infrastructure.

Individual Labour MPs have a survival instinct for the next election which is why they vote against cuts in government spending eg WFA or PIP.

But on the longer term reputational damage to the Labour Party they don't
care. Besides most voters base their voting decision on voting for anyone except whoever is in power.

Absolutely but it was a vote winner so they’ll keep going with the spite. The result though is it moves from VAT to ever increasing groups of people.

Current talk of anyone earning over £45k not being a working person. It’s complete nonsense but it shows how they are failing.