U-turn on PIP reforms - 4 point rule will only apply to new claims

[IShouldNotCoco]

https://news.sky.com/story/government-to-make-concessions-to-labour-rebels-over-welfare-reforms-sky-news-understands-13388797

It must be. Surely if there is a comparison with one person eligible and one not, with let's say, the same physical disability, then if an MR fails a legal tribunal surely can't.

I am so pissed off with Labour. I've always voted Labour, but I don't recognise this mess.

Yes. All other parties have ruled themselves out. How can Labour make this insane decision. I think the vote could well be cancelled altogether. Better than this two tier madness. To get the bill withdrawn is the aim. This two tier won't happen. Reform will be pleased with all the Labour infighting.

100% agree, it’s still letting disabled people down.

I would never vote reform. I don’t realise that was an automatic consequence of criticising a Labour policy.

If this was always the case why were people panicking about losing it?

"So is it thst existing claimants only het under old rules till their renewal? I read it that existing claimants would still be under old rules at renewal so essentially if on pip already you’d always be under old rules , where as new claimants would be under new rules"

It's always really hard to tell with welfare reform stories. Because neither the politicians making the announcements, or the journalists reporting on them tend to understand benefits very well.

There'll be some geeky little DWP guys behind the scenes who knows what they're doing and everyone else is bluffing their way through.

I read it as a cynical attempt by Starmer to pass off how welfare reform is usually introduced, as some kind of special concession. But perhaps you are right.

If so- It seems a bit mad to run two parallel PIP regimes alongside each other, for however long. That sounds like an extra layer of complexity we could all do without.

Never.

You make it sound like the only option.

It was only decided yesterday.

Sorry, I should have said that until then, all those currently in receipt of PIP would have had to score 4 points on one section of the daily living aspect rather than the accumulated points that qualify now.

On renewal after Nov 2026.

I'll get there in the end!

I probably won't actually 🤣

These aren’t reforms they are changing the definition of disability for the eligibility of PIP? It’s just a deliberate attempt to shut out a huge amount of people from the help they deserve ? It’s no different to suddenly saying ‘well too many people have got cancer and diabetes for the last few years so we will only treat a certain group not all’ and changing treatment thresholds and criteria. It’s won’t help the underlying problems as people have genuine illness and disability. All that will happen is they will suffer.

Plus what is meant by ‘new claimants’ will these rules be applied to renewals as well ?

My understanding is that the original announcement was that the changes would apply to everyone, new claimants and existing (from their next assessment). The new announcement is that it will only be new claimants.

I’m not sure why this would satisfy the Labour MPs who were prepared to rebel, but clearly they think it’s enough of a change that it will.

Flip flop Starmer earning his name. Can the man ever stick to a decision? Or indeed stop attacking the elderly and disabled? People voted Labour in good faith - it's hard to believe they are worse than the Tories but there you go.

Good point. The rationale either way doesn’t change.

Do the MPs think oh ok they’ll be fine now.

Ah, I thought someone up thread said this wasn't a concession, as transitional protection was always in place.

They will be yes.

It is a concession. A big critic of the bill has acknowledged that it is a change from the original plan, although his quote is that the change makes a terrible bill slightly less terrible and he’ll still be voting against it (Richard Burgen, Labour MP), which makes sense because I can’t see why this change would really make anyone change their mind. If they disagree with the 4 point rule, they aren’t going to agree just because it only applies to some people.

I completely agree with this. This government just isn’t acting like a Labour government at all. People did not vote for more of the same vile treatment of vulnerable people and this is even worse.

I firmly believe that they are trying to plug the deficit caused by all the furlough payments that everyone was happy to accept during the pandemic.

Labour have put in policies lowering growth and tax receipts, the NI policy mostly.

They then do these cuts to try to balance that out.

They're really not worse than the Tories.

From the article linked by OP: Helen Whately, shadow work and pensions secretary, said: "This is another humiliating U-turn forced upon Keir Starmer.
"With the sickness benefits bill set to reach £100bn by 2030 the country needs action. But Labour has lurched from a bad plan to a next-to-nothing plan.

"The latest 'deal' with Labour rebels sounds a lot like a two-tier benefits system, more likely to encourage anyone already on benefits to stay there rather than get into work."

She's calling people on disability workshy scroungers, who would have got off our arses and into work if our benefits were axed.

This is a blog created by Mumsnetters in 2012, when the Conservatives forced their Welfare Reform Bill through against strong opposition. Using an archaic Parliamentary rule that had been forgotten about, they held the vote at night after everyone else had gone home. The first post on this page explains how DLA was being replaced with PIP to save money. Have a read:
https://toomanycuts.blogspot.com/search/label/disability

It is not discrimination in the legal sense.

And nobody has "the same physical disability" (or mental disability) - in both cases these benefits are based on impacts and not diagnoses (with very limited exceptions for LCWRA) and impacts vary from person to person even with exactly the same diagnoses.

Not in favour of the changes (although in favour of proper review and reform), but we need to be clear that work capability does vary enormously between people due to varying conditions and circumstances. I receive PIP at the highest level and was able to work right up to retirement due to the nature of my job and adjustments by the employer. Someone else equally disabled may not have been able to do that because their personal circumstances, type of work possible, or employers flexibility were different. In other words I would never have passed a LCWRA assessment, but someone else with similar disability would, but we would both have received PIP because it isn't an out of work benefit. Or that should be the case, although obviously it isn't always.

Thank you.

I really appreciate your reply actually, I hadn't really thought my post through.

Food for thought indeed.

Although it still a ridiculous decision. There has been so much talk about the current system not being fit for purpose, but rather than jump in with the 4 points scheme - which won't be fit for purpose either for many, why not come up with an overhaul that is fair for all.

I'm rambling now... My tired brain is fried!

I don't think you are rambling - you are right. For too long, often with good cause, people with disabilities have not been in the fight for better systems and rights though. That's what got us here, and be under no illusion that we are still a target of choice - read the many threads about how we are mostly liars and frauds on here, for example, and MNHQ's ongoing failure to address this because it's "educational". It is not just the politicians who think we are weak and vulnerable - it is most of society. And if we want positive change we need to build it ourselves, not depend on good graces of others.

Exactly, there are other parties to vote for.

I was given pip last year as I had a stroke . It has left me needing to use a walking stick , can't walk for long without needing to stop . Can't go out by myself as find paths , kerbs , crossing the road etc difficult
No longer drive as visually not safe , struggle to get in / out of a car as lifting my legs up and in my brain finds hard to compute , likewise getting up from the floor is now impossible .
I was given standard living pip and nothing for mobility so just under £74 a week .
I don't work , and think it would be very hard to do so and can't imagine anyone,would take me on .
As a couple ( married ) we don't qualify for any other benefit as dh works .
I think some people assume people on pip are raking it in and it's money for old rope .
It's not always the case .