Does the UK still have an 'intellectual class'?

[NormaSnorks]

Not sure if this is politics or society really, but I found myself thinking about this after a couple of social events.

I'm in my 50s and have a group of friends and when we meet I'd say we are are 'intellectually curious' - interested in the news, literature, the arts etc and happy discussing and debating things. We can have very different individual views on things, but we'll be respectful and remain friends at the end of the day. I find our discussions interesting, sometimes challenging and occasionally I change my view about something as a result.

But I don't see this kind of approach around me in other social groups, or in my adult children's friends, or even much in the media? It seems people are either unable or unwilling to discuss anything of substance and become deeply uncomfortable with disagreement?

Is it just a generational thing? Where and who are the young intellectuals?

I'm someone who naturally enjoys discussing 'deep' topics. I find a lot of chit chat very innane (I'm neurodiverse, so that doesn't help), and as a result, I find it very hard to make true friends. I get along with everyone tbh, but I really need friends who share the same interests and who are on the same intellectual wavelength as me. However, I don't think anyone is better than anyone else, just because someone likes things that society has deemed as intellectual.

I'm also more than happy to discuss different viewpoints (I love a debate!), and will treat them with curiosity and kindness, but I'm also never going to be besties with a Reformer, for example. I think people have lost the art of nuance though. I'd never turn around and call all Reformers racist scum like some on the left do (and I consider myself a die hard socialist!), because it's far more complex than that. A lot of anti immigration rhetoric is tied deeply in class struggles.

I love reading and writing poetry, watching plays, and learning just for the sake of learning. But, I'm also not above watching trash like MAFS and Love Island, lol. Most people like a mix of topics.

I think unfortunately the UK has always had, and continues to have, a deeply entrenched class system. Historically, things like opera excluded the working classes and was a spectacle for the wealthy elite. In modern times, going to see a musical is predominantly a middle class activity as it's expensive. Also, working class people traditionally worked very long shifts before workplace laws came to be. All of that means things that we now think of as cultured are treated with suspicion by the working class. I'm from a very working class background, and my dad (from a mining family) is very much of the opinion that art is pointless, Athens is a bunch of old rocks, and avocados are rubbish.

Everyone has different interests ofc, but 'culture' will always continue to be predominantly for the middle classes whilst we live under such a strict social hierarchy where the wealthier you are, the better education you typically have access too. It's also hard to take things like art and theatre seriously when you're busy trying to scrape enough money together to pay your bills. And people can say museums are free until they're blue in the face, but not everyone has transport, can afford much public transport, lives near a city with decent museums, or even has a good enough standard of reading to truly understand what they're looking up. It's hard to enjoy something if you don't have the educational background to truly digest it.

The ability to put a lot of thought into intellectual or cultural pursuits is an immense privilege, and it's unreasonable to suggest otherwise imo. Also, intelligence and education are very different things. There will be swathes of working class people who are naturally very intelligent, but unfortunately face cultural and monetary barriers to accessing education on some topics.

I also do think it's classism to see some pursuits as cultural and intelligent, and some as trashy. Opera and theatre are fun, but ultimately a pointless form of entertainment. So is football. But one is seen as for smart people because the middle classes say so 🤷

Oh God. Absolutely all of this. Stephen Fry: people thinking he’s a pound-for-pound Oscar Wilde.

Even TV programmes from a few decades ago are far more mentally stimulating and broader in content.

I’m late 30s and a few years ago had a potential date say to me <deep breath> “you don’t always have to use such big words, you know. You can talk normally”

Rrrrrrright. So, I concur with PPs who said that forms of aptitude or even “effort” or a standard for oneself is derided by modern society.

Further, what was that finding the other week about the semi-colon dying out?

It's far more risky than it used to be. Old school notions like agreeing to disagree, playing the ball and not the man and whatnot, which previously afforded the opportunity to walk away from a challenging discussion with a good amount of good grace seems to have been completed jettisoned and so along with it, the ability to have interesting discussions without social penalty.

I'll happily get into it with family who have a robust nature and good humour but after losing friends because I wouldn't cede to gender nonsense it won't go further than that now.

@Ladamesansmerci

Opera and theatre are fun, but ultimately a pointless form of entertainment.

In your opinion. You see art as 'a pointless form of entertainment' others see it as uplifting and enriching or food for the soul. There's a reason authoritarians burn books.

There will be swathes of working class people who are naturally very intelligent, but unfortunately face cultural and monetary barriers to accessing education on some topics.

Libraries are free and the internet has libraries of free books and countless articles on any subject you can imagine.

Archive version: https://archive.ph/C8rFg

Blimey that's depressing! Moving towards towards a "post-literate" society...

I do see lots of people very much set on their beliefs and #nodebate. Maybe being challenged upsets them or maybe there is no real thought behind their belief.

A colleague commented recently that if you can predict someone's opinion on every topic once you know it on two they are boring - I've considered this with people I know well and think I agree.

There are a few street epistemology YouTube channels, they're great to watch but on meatier subjects no one appears willing to participate.

Might I suggest you all watch the Chomsky and Foucault debate/discussion up on YouTube? Thoughtful and enjoyable.

I think cancel culture and wokery have a lot to answer for. Nobody wants to say anything for fear of a “you hurt my feelings!”

I agree.

People are reading so much less.

Just because people face barriers to access intellectual pursuits doesn’t mean we should devalue them. And increasingly the barriers are self imposed - eg addiction to phones, social media, screen time diminishing attention spans so people are losing the ability to read a book.

How can we change this?

Thanks! Will watch. (1971 FWIW.)

I liked many of the comments, including "It’s such a relief to not have to hear applause in between each speakers points. A time where intelligent debate wasn’t a point scoring, moneymaking, gameshow and was for the pure pursuit of truth is sorely missed."

Learning used to be valued. Now students are units on a production line, humanities departments are being closed and parents want teachers to teach life skills. I read today that parents think reading to their children is boring.

I work in finance. Live in the suburbs outside a university city.

Friend group is fairly varied.

Are you referring to the Love Island type of people? I’m not sure how else to describe them, but yes, they do seem to live in a bit of a bubble.

Goodness, the snobbery on this thread. 😔

I’m dirt poor working class and live in a deprived area but my friends, family and acquaintances can all hold a civilised conversation on modern politics, literature, philosophy, religion, the arts etc. Even though we are working class we can still hold a view, debate and disagree without resorting to fisty cuffs! Some of us even read The Times, play musical instruments, volunteer, speak different languages, listen to classical music, grow rare plants, cook unpronounceably named exotic food and listen to radio 4.

You can find pig-shit thickos in all class bands. Even those who speak RP. Just look at the dearth of intellect in the royal family. People who’ve benefitted from the best education money can buy.

Please don’t equate intellect, curiosity and being well read with those who have the benefit of privilege.

I’d also quibble the Love Island point.

I used to think it was absolute brain-rot. However, I find it’s quite interesting psychology at play - you can really note attachment styles, manipulation, gulfs of brain activity, and how they assimilate. I think John Nash wasn’t that far off with his game theory!

Fascinating thread, thank you OP. I'm in my early 50s and my background is working class. I'd describe my family as intelligent, but not necessarily well educated or well read. My parents for example left school at 15 and then went into care work (Mum) and joinery (Dad).

I went to university and studied up to PhD level, which at the time was unheard of amongst my family and friends. Interestingly, my brother did the same thing and is now an academic.

I now have young adult sons, who are intelligent and thoughtful people. Despite their general intelligence, I wouldn't consider them to be 'intellectual.' (I'm genuinely not talking them down, I'm fairly certain they wouldn't describe themselves as intellectually minded either!) Their main interests are sport and music and they take very little interest in current affairs, politics or social issues. I wouldn't say they're typical of their generation, but they do seem to live in a bubble, as do my brother's young adult sons. They are certainly capable of intelligent conversation and we discuss all sorts of things with them, but they'd never choose to read a non fiction book, watch a documentary or listen to a podcast that was intellectually stretching. It's an interesting phenomenon and I'm enjoying reading everyone's ideas about how and why it may have come about.

In the 60s 70s there were intellectual discussions on radio and tv, Malcolm Muggeridge comes to mind.

However the interviewees were from a very privileged class, mostly men. People from very wealthy families who had been to public school then on to Oxbridge. Studying the classics or whatever.

Nowadays the equivalent rich privileged kids head into the city. Into businesses to make them richer. Or perhaps some of the Oxbridge students aren’t rich to start with so have other priorities than intellectual debate.

I have been wondering when it was that being intellectual became unfashionable.

The pursuit of knowledge was prized in the Victorian era.

Now the majority want to watch love island and the like - with fake manufactured people and their fake manufactured scenarios.

When did this happen exactly ?

I remember it happening in the 90s. News programmes became bite sized as people had shorter attention spans.

TV began to follow a formula and it was considered too expensive to nurture talent and make heavy programmes. Yoof culture was discovered and pursued.

With Big Brother came the cheap reality TV format. It wasn't scripted and involved bunging people somewhere and watching them. We also developed shows with celebrities.

We used to have regular plays, arts programmes, political discussions, documentaries and interviews. Now we have Ant and Dec goading people into eating grubs.

It's interesting - there's so much more access to information now if you know where to look, but I also feel it's no longer normalised.

For example, I can search out lectures from great universities, or watch recommendations if debates on YouTube (thanks PPs) but the average level of content on mainstream media is incredibly low. The BBC news website, for example, is dominated by short videos with such shallow analysis as to be useless. I understand the need to be accessible, but the aim to inform seems to have entirely disappeared.

That's without getting into the black and white thinking that is so commonplace now. It feels more comparable to picking a football team than proper discussion. Choose a side - Israel or Palestine, Brexit or EU, environment or industry - never admit to nuance, always consider the other team to be unthinkingly evil, compromise is for the weak.

I agree with this, and I'm a dyed-in-the-wool champagne socialist.

I'm also an ex-TV producer, and I think you're quite right. I don't consider myself to be an intellectual, but find myself reaching for the off button on R4 more and more. The inanity and the throaty/whispered podcast "investigations", weird grammar (using the present tense to talk about historical narrative, why is this a thing? It's just confusing.) and insistance on covering mainstream celebrity-driven issues is just depressing.

Where's the rigour? There seems to be more in the consumer programmes like More or Less than in the documentaries.

Am I just a curmudgeon? I'm only 53!

Fabulous thread: thank you for starting it

I do believe that intellectual curiosity is on the decline. For instance, when you watch videos of ordinary folk from the 1960s, they are articulate and knowledgeable about all manner of liberal arts subjects. I do think we are being infantilised and much is being dumbed down.

People inhabit echo chambers so true debate is difficult unless, like OP, you have a trusted circle, where robust discussions are possible. I also find a lot of people are unable to follow a discussion logically and are quick to take offence when none is intended.

I home educate my daughter now: intially, this decision was taken out of necessity but now I embraced it as an opportunity to introduce her to a classical education. I received a somewhat lack lustre education- myself- so I am deriving some benefit.

I only wish I knew people-in real life- who shared these interests. It's quite lonely when you dont have that outlet. That said, I will look into some of those YouTube recommendations. Thank you.

interestingly, I think the availability of information on the Internet might be part of the problem.

Years ago, if you knew about something it’s because you had studied it - school, uni, library etc. if you hadn’t, you didn’t know about it and would be forced to say “I don’t know”, because really, you just wouldn’t.

nowadays, you can access dumbed down versions of just about anything on the internet.

nobody says “I don’t know” anymore; they google the most basic premise, pick a side, and will argue that point like they are an expert and spread misinformation.

I am a university lecturer and I teach in the creative arts. Most of our students don't bother attending lectures, watching films or reading articles. They just use google.

Which is shocking, isn't it? I don't teach an academic subject, so I wouldn't expect students to be particularly that way inclined, but the lack of interest in expert opinion is an eye-opener. I would talk to them about the enshittification of the internet and how Google can no longer be trusted for accurate results, but attendance so low, there probably would not be enough people in the room to stage a useful debate. Maybe universities like mine are part of the problem...

That's such an interesting point about access to shallow information. AI is going to make this whole trend so much worse. A few weeks ago I spoke to someone who genuinely argued that it is ableist to expect students to complete uni work without AI.

I don’t think the English overall like conspicuous display of intellect, and since university education expanded this hermetic class of people that used to dominate academia and media have had to compete with more popular taste.

Commercial life is necessarily more vulgar. It’s about making money. I don’t expect much intellectual depth at work from my younger colleagues because unless they’ve had a particular background they will have specialised early at school and got very good at their subject. They’ve also typically had to work harder, get into debt and compete to higher standards than my generation did.

The people at work who have got all this conscious intellect and complex thinking - usually pretty well off and for generations at that.