Immigration, how did we get here?

[Sausagenbacon]

How have we come to a place in the UK where we don't seem to be able to provide our own workforce, whether it's bar staff, surgeons or brick layers?
I know we have an aging population, but surely that can't be the only reason.
In the case of bar staff and cleaners, when we travel in Europe, it seems to me that those roles are taken by locals. Why do we have to import people from Europe to do it?
Please don't treat this as a goady thread, I am genuinely puzzled by this.

@Sausagenbacon I don't know why you think this is a uk only problem. I have a lot of European colleagues. In the Netherlands menu's and ordering options are changing because many waiters don't speak Dutch. Kitchen staff are increasingly immigrants too. Germany struck a dea with an African country where a certain number of people trained for mostly technical will be provided every year. The Germans will support skills development in that country then cream off some (the best?) to work in Germany. Almost every European country has shortage of workers whether you term them skilled or non skilled.

It's not just 'today's kids' who look down on anything without a degree; it's employers.

Last place we lived I knew quote a few studying with OU or been mature students at actual uni in recent past because they'd all been told could't progress their careers without a degree. It can often be harder to get later as kids, work and mortgages all start to be part of life.

I don’t know anything so a . Wild guess, mental health issues, poverty, ugly places to live? I don’t know

Does it matter? Does it matter if your plumber/builder/carer/Dr/whatever wasn’t born here? If they’re paying taxes you are literally getting the benefit of another countries education and training.

I think there are lots of issues. The 50% target was stupid as it just creates needless qualifications inflation and increases expectations. I think as well it’s easy to just rely on importing trained people rather than bothering to do something about people here. There are lots of people who could have been trained. I hate on threads like this when people just talk down people. I think more could be done to encourage people into needed professions. I hadn’t a clue what to choose when I was a teenager and could easily have been happy in some needed profession.

There are way too many economically inactive working age people in this country.
I remember the days when if you refused jobs within your capabilities, your state handouts were stopped.
Perhaps it's time to bring this back
And start clamping down on the massive benefit fraud as well

@Fordian NMW has its own issues. The cost of existing (not living) is an issue to sort before you meddle with wages.

Absolutely this.

Back in the 70's we had plenty of factories, bakeries and small businesses offering hours which were attractive to the at home Mums. We had the busses so that they could get there, too. Fewer women had their own cars then.
Times like 6-8 in the evening, Sunday afternoons. Lunch time pub shifts - we had plenty of pubs then.
Tea time cleaning shifts.
Not so much the higher paid roles, you certainly took the hit if you were at home.
Then there was the army of women who went spud and fruit picking in the season. Took young children with them to play.
There were no zero hours contracts, you knew you had 2 hours a day or whatever.
I think zero hours should go. Even if it is a couple of hours a day, you should be able to rely on it.

Well because it increases the needs to import more people, yes we have an aging population but equally we have a falling U.K. birth rate, you can bring people in to care for the elderly, one day they will be elderly and needing care- it’s a short term solution creating an even long term problem.

I’m 60. I don’t remember this.

So your issue is that immigrant workers may one day in old age need care? Presumably they will have paid INTO the system in their working years and have cost less than the equivalent home grown worker because you didn’t have to pay to educate/health/care for them pre immigration.

100% this. I used to be a cleaner and I'll never forget two young girls joining and honestly believing that they were far too good to have to clean a bathroom. Alot of the menial jobs are definitely looked down on and it's right that people who have no qualifications or skills expect to earn a massive wage from the get go 🤷

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · Today 12:09
AzureAnt · Today 11:51
There are way too many economically inactive working age people in this country.
I remember the days when if you refused jobs within your capabilities, your state handouts were stopped.
Perhaps it's time to bring this back
And start clamping down on the massive benefit fraud as well
I’m 60. I don’t remember this.

I am a bit older, and did a stint in the civil service - dole as it was called then.
It was ridiculously easy to opt out of work - we were known as dole-on- sea, because people came down, rented for the season and sat on the beach all day.
Certainly no one here in Kent was checking up on your work ability.
It changed a little in the 80's when people were sent on training courses.

I was on the come in student holidays.

Had a ball.

I was also unemployed ( high youth unemployment in the 80’).

Dole wasn’t available if you were sacked but you didn’t have to look for jobs like now. That came in later.

Late 80’s/early 90’s

I've read that people only have to show that they have applied for jobs. No-one checks if they attend interviews so they are very unlikely to be offered a job.

Lack of investment and training. We have shortages in key skill areas such as engineering and IT. Lack of a living wage, many people can't afford to feed their family and keep a roof over their head on minimum wage.

Lack of government funded bursaries. We have a severe nursing shortage for example and they have to pay for their training and are very low paid. Nurses also used to hit the ground running and train on the wards, now it's degree based.

Too many people go to university instead of moving into apprenticeships. Lack of affordable childcare and places. Lack of support for working mothers.

Low birth rate for decades plus large segment of the population being over age 60 is why we need immigrants to fill in the vacant spots so our demographics are not an upside down pyramid. There are plenty of local workers in those categories OP, there simply are not enough because not enough British children were born decades ago to fill these jobs now.

Most of Europe is in the same boat.

I'm echoing a lot already said so won't parrot it, but also the inflexible nature of benefits. Hospitality, care, retail, and other low pay employers want flexibility, different hours nearly weekly, and the employee needs state top-up because the wages are sub realistic to live on. If wages fluctuate, your benefits end up wrong, and if you are overpaid, they want it back.. It's far too stressful for a low paid job. It should, in this day and age, be easy to upload changes to shifts/ wages and benefits automatically recalculated.

From what I remember,
There was a stigma about being on the dole, so people in the main, wanted to work.
White collar jobs = more respectable than blue collar jobs = more respectable than being on dole.
Lots of jobs that were white/blue collar were 9-5 turn up do repetitive tasks and then leave and if you didn't want to work there, then you could get another of these jobs the next week. These jobs have been automated or outsourced.
People retired earlier which also freed up jobs.
High qualifications to do basic white/blue collar jobs not expected previously.
Gap in living between being on the dole and working, (even minimum wage) appeared more significant, incentivising working.
Appeared to be progression within a company when starting at the bottom which then annoyed graduates who were put at same level as people who had come 'from the bottom'.

Where did you read that? That sounds rubbish. Here they definitely check and coach you in interview technique and give you advice on where to look.

I have a number of friends with children in their twenties and early thirties. They went to university came home and only work part time. One does two days a week as a carer, the other works at Tesco for a few hours. Neither have any ambition to learn to drive, or to move out. They live at home like an adult teenager and spend what they earn on themselves.

there seems to be a big increase in people not working a full 36 hour week. Even when the hours are available to them they drift along living hand to mouth rather than working hard when they are younger so that they have savings and a pension for the future.

If you live in my coastal town you have to earn big bucks as the prices have rocketed. Most homes are second homes.

The nearest town from us is 8 miles away. Even there house prices aren't cheap but they are slightly more affordable and there is some rental property. However to work in our town they have to drive and pay to park all day (upwards of £10) or catch public transport (which is rare but does exist in the day but not later at night)

People here that have done OK for themselves and are now over 50 are retiring early, or at least going part time and enjoying their spare time - not working.

Any business in our town needing employees is stuck sourcing them from an ever dwindling pool of people.

I can only imagine many places are even worse - like St Ives where almost every house is a second home or holiday let and the very local.population providing a workforce getting smaller and smaller.

I've got a colleague like it, 21, not educated past gcse, lives like a 14yr old, does less than 20 hours work a week, no ambition, no drive, unreliable. Mum is disabled, on benefits, not working but keeps him as well.

I think a lot has to do with low wages and 0 hours contract... Who can realistically live like that?
Especially when UC gives more stability and you don't have to worry about being pulled up or sanctioned because you're always short on hours.