Immigration, how did we get here?

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How have we come to a place in the UK where we don't seem to be able to provide our own workforce, whether it's bar staff, surgeons or brick layers?
I know we have an aging population, but surely that can't be the only reason.
In the case of bar staff and cleaners, when we travel in Europe, it seems to me that those roles are taken by locals. Why do we have to import people from Europe to do it?
Please don't treat this as a goady thread, I am genuinely puzzled by this.

Germany takes many immigrants and has free movement from the EU.

The answer to your overall question is falling birth rates and increased life expectancy. We have very low numbers of working age people in comparison to our retiree population.

It wasn't rare in your bubble, but it wasn't the norm across society.

The stats are known - only a minority went to uni in the 80s

My ds is 15, just taken his GCSEs. He's tried to get a job but no-one will employ him until he is 16. He's taking a pool lifeguarding course after his birthday and will then be able to get a job.

I think fewer older people work now. My dsis retired as a teacher when she was 61 but works as a relief teacher for the local primary school when needed. She is the exception.

Our society & tax system don't seem to encourage flexible working, part time hours etc.

Does that mean it can only increase over time?

As that larger influx will age

So 20 to 50 years it’s more of an issue

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-49841620.amp gives the comparisons

Presumably we will work out how to tax robots in time.

I would assume the people who moan about 'immigrants' will moan about that too.

I'm a home carer.
As an industry, we've been unable to recruit/retain for the last decade.
I would have new starters, sent by the JobCentre, under threat of UC sanctions, shadow me. Some became good carers, but most just stopped turning up. Usually, when they realised they were hardly any better off, after tax, NI, pension, travel, childcare and 55% UC deductions.

So, we've now recruited from Africa and the Philippines.
The visa conditions specify those employees must have guaranteed, full time hours a week. So, if a client leaves us, ie, goes into residential care, or dies, their hours have to be taken from me, and the other UK carers.
Last month, for example, we lost 3 clients, totalling 63 hours a week. So, myself and 2 colleagues lost 20 hours each, a week! I won't be able to cover my rent - again.
So, we are all struggling, due to this unforseen consequence.
I don't understand why this scheme was pushed, rather than just improving pay and conditions, so that UK workers actually want to do the work, and can make a living at it.
Surely, making lowly care work (and similar) more 'respectable' would have cost less than the housing and school places etc, required for the incoming workers and their dependents?

Yes, yes, yes.

Some children are un-academic. It must be awful to have to stay on at school to 16 or 18 when you don't want to be there. I sometimes go so far as to say that teenagers should be allowed to leave school at 14 if they have jobs. Instead of the government spending money on them in school, give some at least of that money to employers who must use it to give some teaching in what they really need the youngsters to know, for the job in hand.

Years ago, 1970s or 1980s, I heard someone say that the unions pressed for higher pay for the teenagers and that that was a disinclination for employers to take them on. I know, a 16 year-old might do as much work as a 29 year-old, but there should be pay scales.
There is a huge snobbery in this country about manual work.

Was there a union man called Clive Jenkins? I remember him talking about a high-graduate society. I can't remember if it was 50% or more that he was meaning. When degrees are ten a penny they're not worth much. There are graduates in this country now who have precious little calibre.
I suspect that Labour MPs will chat on about working people but will have that 'white-collar-looks-down-on-blue-collar' attitude a little way beneath the surface.

Contrary to popular belief the benefit system in the U.K. is not at all generous and very restrictive. Research shows that in countries like ours the impact is to depress wages. Low wages and high cost of living means that jobs are not attractive to U.K. workers. Work simply doesn’t pay. The U.K. instead depends on cheap migrant labour.

The U.K. tabloid press and right wing politicians then scapegoat and blame the lowly paid immigrant workforce for the issues in society resulting from low pay, high cost of living, and defunding of public services / lack of investment in training and so on. it is cheaper to import readily trained workers from abroad than train our own.

Is asking questions ‘moaning’

I’m not sure why immigration becomes this rarefied thing that can’t be discussed. Probably why so many countries are seeing more extreme political results

On robots and AI. Yes it’ll need to be taxed. I’d say a big part of shifting to lower population growth is working out how to tax it in the country you’re in.

This ^

I was telling a student to get rid of their chewing gum because it was disgusting that Janet (not her real name) had to crawl under tables to remove gum.

A student asked who Janet was and was incredulous that I knew the name of the cleaner.

They got a mini rant on there being nothing wrong with earning an honest living as a cleaner.

I think one of the issues with manual work is that the traditional 'men's' work has largely gone, mining, heavery factory work etc.

Most of the manual work we have these days is 'women's' work, which has traditionally been undervalued.

I didn't say asking questions was moaning.

I said moaning was moaning.

Surely you can tell the difference. I know I can.

Part solution is to push apprenticeships and I think, change the pension age according to industry ie. Manual labour workers retire at 55/60

Why can't teenagers work until they're 16 now? I loved my Saturday jobs in the 90's from the age of 13. I did used to spend the money on 10 b&h but that's not the point.

Not relevant to my post then

safeguarding- I wouldn’t send a 13yr old to a random
business

I agree! Surely this makes sense….

This.

In the 1970s there were 4 people in work for every retired person; it is now less than 2.5. It is the millstone around the neck of the economy.

The government house building push is a non starter, given the lack of youngsters being encouraged to be builders or tradies for around 3 generations....

So actually, we need either immigrants or the planned release of inmates in order to upskill them and provide an adequate workforce to facilitate the housing plan.

My DS enrolled on a Construction BTEC (civil engineering) 3 years ago. It was cancelled the week before commencement due to him being the only person enrolled. That department then closed. That's ONE college, and if you have ever needed to find a builder, plumber or electrician then you'd know they're mostly 40+

What is your preferred way to deal with that?

Euthanasia obviously.

A major factor has to be house prices and therefore rent.

Minimum wage £11.44
Annual for 35 hour week £20,820.8
Monthly: £1,735

Rent - a room costs about £500 a month, 6k a year.
A house costs about 1000 a month, 12k a year,

That probably doesn't feel comfortable for most people

Council tax annually for Manchester
A: £1378.82
B: £1608.63

C: £1838.44

Gas and Electric - well the standing charge alone is about £340 a year, actually using any will increase the cost massively.
Food. An arm and a leg.
Transport. Depends in Manchester on hw many zones - but potentially... £84.20 for 3 zones.

Internet - an essential but that's hard as some people might be happy with a phone deal but say £20-30 a month perhaps.

Other things

• running a car would be almost, if not, impossible on NMW. This then excludes lots of jobs that require funny start times.

-treats and socialising, haircuts, new clothes...

Overhaul minimum wage. Make work pay so the tax payer isn't shoring up the wages of MW employees, subsidising the employer;

Make apprenticeships fit for purpose, no more 'apprentice barista' of 'childminder'.

Fund techs properly (like the sparkly 6th form colleges); pay the often ex tradies who teach properly.

Convert the 'unis' turning out useless degrees to become post 18 apprenticeship schools for block release so the kids get some away from home experience.

Tax unearned income properly.

Value vocation like Germany does.

In the interim, single-person/visa fixed term visas. They'll still come.

Publish the country's unpaid and probably unplayable student debt.

That'll make some people sit up!

My DC has just graduated Graphic Design, rated uni, done well.

But they shouldn't need a degree to do GD! But you won't find an employer who'll take on someone on a living wage who hasn't already funded their own training.

It's not just 'today's kids' who look down on anything without a degree; it's employers.

Younger women can earn more money ow online as content creators, influencers or Only Fans than bar work.