Election - how soon for VAT on school fees?

[Labtastic]

So I see we're likely to have an election in early July. Obviously that spells the end of the godawful tories which is great, but also hastens the incoming VAT on school fees which, for us, is bad. We are one of those families that no one believes exists who stretch ourselves with school fees, and are going to be very pushed for an extra 20%.

Question is - do we think Labour can make this happen in time for September? It'll be our DC's last year of fee paid education and was hoping the timeline for VAT coming in would be stretched out a bit...

The demographics you described is exactly the demographics in my local private schools though, so I don’t get your point, you seem wildly out of touch who goes to private schools these days. Talking of snobbery!

But does your local private school also have children who live with their grandparents because their own parents died from drug abusers? Or parents who are in jail? Or kids who come to school clearly not well looked after at home? Because our state school has all you refer to plus what I've mentioned.

I do agree that the optics for some of the arguaments made here against making education a vatable service arent strong as people do sound a bit petulant.

A lot of the arguament boils down to
labour has said imposing VAT will raise X which will be spent on teacher recruitment. But we believe that it wont raise X because people will change their behaviour to a greater extent that they modelled. We actually believe that y number will move to the state system or never join the privste sector so wont pay VAT so X will be smaller than suggested. Then there will also be a loss of income tax associated with this change in behaviour so the policy will actually cost Z not raise X.

But I dont know if people in favour of this idea really believe it will raise money for teacher recruitment. I think its more ideological that they dont like private education as a concept, so it doesnt matter to them if it costs more.

I suppose people need to see how a private sector is of benefit to them. And by people mean those not buying houses in catchments of outstanding schools who might get priced out of them. I mean those just going to the local comp which doesnt have a great reputation and has vacant spaces.

In my case I would most likely keep my job and put the extra in my pension so I would become a basic rate taxpayer again and be able to claim child benefit. Either way, the state loses a lot of tax from us! TBH after reading so many of the comments on these threads and others and being at the end of personal attacks, I don’t feel like being a net contributor anymore. I would like some time as a net beneficiary.

It is inevitable people would work less.

Some families rely on the second parent’s income to fund the fees. If they no longer have to pay them they will revert back to being reliant on a single income as it’s far easier to sort out childcare, holiday cover etc when one parent isn’t working.

In families where the fees are paid for by a single higher earner it usually becomes logistically and financially sensible to work less, usually revert to 4 days instead of 5 if there are no fees to pay. The 5th day is taxed at a marginal rate of up to 62% so not worth doing it if there is no need for the additional money.

Quite why you think this won’t happen is hard to understand particularly since the government has already stated it is a significant issue in senior medical roles where it has become inefficient to earn over a certain level of salary.

This completely….

The only state school that my DS can get a place at is the catchment RI rated school, which is widely expected to get an inadequate rating at the next upcoming Ofsted inspection. He is bright and achieved very high SATS results but this school is failing him. The often repeated manta that a bright child will do well anywhere doesn’t work when they are missing subject teachers and so are “taught” in the hall in combined classes of mixed year groups by a cover supervisor, or for maths they currently have a teacher but there are 40 children in his maths class. There is only so much that even the brightest 13 year old can teach themselves. There are no school reports and parents’ evenings are rare because lots of teachers have left or are off sick.

We pay the same taxes for this school as other people pay for top performing grammar schools, or even just much better schools - how is that fair? Yet if we were to move him to a private school it would be considered fair for us to pay additional tax on top of fees. I’m sure that Labour MPs planning to introduce VAT on school fees don’t have to send their children to RI/inadequate schools.

To add that I hate the Tories and what they have done to state education and the NHS among other things. I really want to vote Labour but this policy just seems so badly thought out.

They shouldn't (and after the Brexit result I wouldn't be all that positive about a Labour win, nor that they will get the VAT thing approved).
You generally have to give a terms notice when leaving a private school, which would have been this past Easter if a child was not going to attend in September. So any increase would have to be announced well in advance of this (so announce asap after election in July if a Spring term VAT charge to alllow parents to give notice by September.
At my DDs previous independent school the impact on enrolment would be significant, as a large proportion of the students attending were not wealthy enough to cover added costs. This would definitely strain the local state schools, the majority of which are in the 'requiring improvement' Ofsted rating and already finding it difficult to recruit and retain teachers.
Her last independent school, the economic demographic was much higher and I imagine most would be able to comfortably absorb the cost.
There will always be people who prefer to pay for their child's education. Adding VAT to private school fees will not abolish the system. It will make the divide wider.
Plus there's a wealth division for many in the state sector too. I live in a (London) neighbourhood with three good to excellent primary schools. But the three bed terrace houses that surround them are all £1m and up, the value partially propped up by the proximity of these schools. A friend was a school governor at one and when a new housing development was built nearby with a not insignificant amount of affordable housing, more than a few objected as the children 'are not our sort'. Not wanting children of lessor resources to benefit from a good state education while demonising the private sector is hypocritical in the extreme, and though people who think this are in the minority, it does exist. Being able to buy yourself into the catchment area of a good state school or pay for it via fees - both require resources beyond the majority.

@crochetcatsknitting 'If I had to pay for extra tuition, for example, to support my child in a state school there would be tax implications. '

No there would not. Education is and always has been free of tax. Swimming lessons, tutoring, dance, piano, football....none attract VAT. Nowhere in the world charges tax on education.

My DS has a maths scholarship at an independent, won because he is outstanding at maths. State school simply didn't provide what he needs. He's on track to take A'Levels in maths, further maths & physics. Aiming for Durham, Cambridge or Imperial.

As a single mum I pay half fees (which costs me every penny of disposable income). His results will reflect well on the school. UK Plc will get a very well educated engineer.

Labour's policy will deny that opportunity for other children with a specific talent. It's an act of national self harm, and so sad. Labour won't wreck my ds' chance though. I won't allow it. I'll go into debt if they win, to get him through the last two years.

I think people working less is a good thing. Most jobs are not at the high rate tax and many that are don't allow much flexibility. Some of these jobs can be done by other people.
I worked less when my kids were younger, now that they are teens, it could be a good time for me to work full time again.
It is a shame if women leave the workforce, as it will be mainly women, but again, we are only talking about the families who can't afford the 20%, there may be many others happy to pick up the slack.

I don't understand your point about senior medical roles - are you saying in general that people in these roles will work less or are you saying that it's because of the VAT on private schools?

I think people working less is a good thing.

I’m not sure anyone with even the slightest bit of economic understanding would agree.

@Phial "All the high earners will stop working now that they don't need to pay for private schools any more so no more high earner tax"

I'm 60, single parent, already recovering from breast cancer. The only thing that keeps me working is my ds' school fees.

The moment school fees are done with, I shall retire and move somewhere less expensive. So in my case the UK will lose my £15k a year PAYE, my 40 years skills and experience, corporation tax on the £750k I earned for my company last year. And if DS were younger, they'd have to provide a school place for him at £6k a year.

So a net loss for UK plc of between £90k and £100k per annum from just one pupil. How is that not Labour cutting off their nose to spite their face?

The policy is demonstrably foolish.

It works for me.
If you want to work more and encourage people to work more, that's fine.
It can, however, lead to health issues and a lack of work life balance.
I prefer that balance.
Economics is not the only thing people think about when they make their life choices.

But as a government, they need people to work more, to earn more, to increase GDP, to pay more tax and to spend more. That is what pays for state schools and the NHS.

The fact that you prefer working a bit less, isn't something on which to base national tax policy.

A functioning economy needs people to work and add to the country’s productivity. Given that a decreasing number of people are net contributors, how do you think the tax system is going to be able afford to continue funding people who fancy putting their feet up a bit more? Life choices are all well and good whilst ever someone else is willing and able to fund that choice.

I agree 100%. This is where the Labour Party have been blind. The long term financial impact of this has not been considered. I have friends where only one person works to pay school fees. They have said they will do reduced hours (these are professionals like GPs) or possibly consider quitting. As they don’t need to work for the fees anymore. It’s so poorly planned.

So less professionals, less taxes such as NI and Income tax. It’s going to have such a negative impact. Oh and on this occasion one less Dr for the NHS!!!

Wow wow wow. And who pays for education whilst you put your feet up? The less people work, the less tax is paid, which goes to fund things which includes education...surely you understand that?

I work a 35 hour week and I earn a lot more than the minimum wage.
Of course I understand that.

It's concerning you think that having a work life balance equates putting your feet up. Do you really think that it's only private school parents who work hard?

You just said working less works for you and you prefer that balance?

A PP said everyone should work more.
I am happy with how much I work.

And this completely misses the point - that these parents will reduce their hours and pay less tax....nobody is saying only private school parents work hard - where did you get that from?

I have children in both state and private education and I agree with the policy. I just can't justify how zero VAT on private education can be viewed as fair alongside the dire underfunding of state education. I do agree however, that some of the repercussions aren’t great . No child should have to move from a school where they are happy and successful, but where there's a will there's a way and I'm sure private schools could come up with a solution to these cases or to existing pupils.

I think Labour will succeed in some way or another, although stranger things have happened during the course of elections. I hope they follow through on this, not because I'm envious but because I work in a school and have seen the impact of cutting support staff in a class of 30 kids, 20% of whom have additional needs. Not to mention the embargo on pencils and photocopying! With only 6% of children privately educated and the other 94% of the population in state, I don't see people rushing to the aid of privately educated kids and their families and changing their vote. To be fair, it wouldn't and hasn't happened the other way around either.

I am trying to leave my personal situation out of this as a shock in income last summer already led to me putting some plan b's in place.

I actually think this policy could lead to bigger social changes than people assume, you could be changing numbers and needs in state schools to a large degree. I hope that, if it is implemented, due care and attention is paid to model through the changes. At the moment it feels like a bit of a show boating policy.

Im guessing Starmer's nice house is in a catchment area for a good state school and therefore cost x amount more than a few roads along...? Its a little like my plan b plans...

Yep he lives in an area where the average cost of houses is 2 million

No one is saying State schools should not be funded properly! No one is saying State school parents don’t work as hard.

what people are saying is: this is a poorly thought out policy which in reality will penalise THE ENTIRE COUNTRY!! It does no one any favours, it will COST more than it will gain.

I fully expect Labour to bottle it on VAT on private school fees. I would love them to do this (they also need to remove gift aid for donations). I'm no Labour supporter, but a silver lining would be if they actually did what they said they'd do on private schools

And a shake up on education would be a good thing. The idea of private school parents needing to move their children to state schools and finding the only school places are in the inadequate schools, just might improve the whole state system and address the long term failing state schools (we all have a bad school in our areas).