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I have never felt so bleak

106 replies

Alanis126 · 14/12/2019 17:33

The whole thing, Brexit, Johnson re-elected has put me in a pit of despair. I hate what the UK has become. Can someone, anyone recommend a website or something where I can connect with like minded people? I cannot function and I don't want to carry on like this

OP posts:
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StealthPussy · 20/12/2019 09:38

Its true I’m not in the top 10%. If I was I would feel thoroughly ashamed that I was profiting whilst others who working just as hard were suffering.
But I’m glad I don't get my kicks by putting other people down.

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Devereux1 · 20/12/2019 09:48

OP, your desire to find others with the same view so you may live in an echo chamber won't do much for your mental health.

Might I suggest a different first step? You say you didn't realise so many people felt the way they do. Why do you think that is? It's quite difficult to have not realised how 17.4 million people felt. As a first step, don't only look only for others who suffer from your own negative condition, be open to all and discuss, debate and listen to others without labelling them before they have uttered a word to you.

It will free you, it will make you mentally healthier, and the bonus is it will probably make you a nicer person too.

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ThePlantsitter · 20/12/2019 09:59

Normally I would agree with you Devereux. But there comes a point when people are voting for things that should not be accepted as 'point of view'. Nationalism, racism (whether you are racist or not BJ's government is) and the slide of a portion of our people into poverty and death should not be brushed off as a disagreement.

I hope fervently I am wrong about the Tories but I don't think so.

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grins · 20/12/2019 10:17

In relation to Corbyn and the IRA - from Channel4 factcheck in 2017/8:

'The Labour leader has been less forthcoming about his contact with people actually convicted of terror offences, although some of these meetings are well documented too.

In October 1984, two weeks after an IRA bomb killed five at the Tory Party conference in Brighton, Corbyn invited convicted IRA volunteers Linda Quigley and Gerry MacLochlainn to the House of Commons. It caused uproar at the time.

But in an interview with the BBC’s Andrew Neil last week, Mr Corbyn said: “I never met the IRA. I obviously did meet people from Sinn Fein, as indeed I met people from other organisations, and I always made the point that there had to be a dialogue and a peace process.”

On Sunday, in an interview with ITV’s Robert Peston, he said: “I have not spoken to the IRA… I’ve met former prisoners who told me they were not in the IRA.”'

And yet in spite of the bridge building he had done with the IRA, he wasn't needed to be involved in the negotiation of the GFA. Go figure.

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Devereux1 · 20/12/2019 10:19

ThePlantsitter

But there comes a point when people are voting for things that should not be accepted as 'point of view'.
Who decides this Plantsitter?

(whether you are racist or not BJ's government is)
This is what I mean. These positions you start from so full of labels, this isn't good for debate, or anyone's own position or mental health.

I'd encourage you exactly as I encouraged OP. Debate with people by all means, but stop the pre-assumed labels, it doesn't do anything for your argument or for you, the outcome is only negative and you weaken your position instantly.

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grins · 20/12/2019 10:20

Do you believe all the propaganda you read in the media or just the stuff about Corbyn?
It’s more complicated than the daily fail portray it. Use a range of media sources and use your brain and start thinking for yourself. Is this really true? Or is this what rich people want me to believe so that I keep voting their mates into power which keeps me poorer than them.


This idea that those who don't think the same as you are somehow less enlightened, more ignorant etc. is precisely how the Left has alienated people. It is intellectual arrogance of the highest order.

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grins · 20/12/2019 10:21

Bold fail!

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youknowitmakessensedunnit · 20/12/2019 10:30

yeah, always boils down to the same irrational conclusion with these people, hence the reason they should just be left to get on with it in their own morally superior fantasy world.

Every disagreement with pro Corbyn people get assimilated into either "you are too stupid/brainwashed to understand" or "you are an evil / morally devoid / sociopathic person"

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Mintjulia · 20/12/2019 10:38

Op, Can you not get it into proportion. The UK still has all the lovely people we have always had. Nurses & carers & foster parents and volunteers.

The Labour proposition this time was too far left for most but that doesn’t mean everyone has turned into dyed in the wool tories.
The country is not full of Xenophobes and bigots although they do seem to take up more column inches than they should. Next election, things will right themselves, the balance of power will move back to centre and we will carry on as before.
British people are naturally pretty middle of the road, which is why we’ve never had a revolution. Have some faith in them Brew

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yellowallpaper · 20/12/2019 11:03

I just hate the ignorance and xenophobia I really do

So hey are you expressing it?

I think the rabid name calling and intolerance says far more about the Labour voting Remainers than it does about Tory Leavers.

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Petronius16 · 20/12/2019 12:33

Apparently the strength of our democracy is every five years (at the moment) we get the chance to vote to elect our MP. If the MP loses their seat, then they leave Parliament and can no longer have influence there. Unless you're Zac Goldsmith, loses seat but goes to Lords to continue being a minister. That’s not democratic.

The Brexit Bill will go through, with at least an 80 vote majority. As all Tory MP’s have pledged to support The Great Leader, there’s no need for Parliament to meet at all. Is there? MP’s have to vote as they’re told, thus they are no longer a representative of their constituency.

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Aposterhasnoname · 20/12/2019 12:51

Devereux1

Brilliant post.

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SilverySurfer · 20/12/2019 14:46

Is this a joke? You don't even live in the UK.

The Brexit Bill has just been passed in Parliament with a big majority - something else to add to your pity party.

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ThePlantsitter · 20/12/2019 15:47

But there comes a point when people are voting for things that should not be accepted as 'point of view'.
Who decides this Plantsitter?


It's a personal decision isn't it. For me, I can accept 5 years of a government I don't agree with if it just means 5 years of pitiful investment in schools, playgrounds, the nhs and so on. I don't like it but i accept it as democratic.

What I don't and won't accept is when this stuff endangers life like the benefit sanctions carried out by this government have been shown to. When the prime minister lies and uses illegal procedures like proroguing Parliament to get what he wants. When racist language is being used by that same prime minister and racist abuse rises in the population as a result. When immigrants who have lived here years and paid taxes here are ousted unceremoniously.

Boris johnson cheats, lies and breaks the law. I will not accept that he is 'people's prime minister' or try to understand the point of view of racist liars. You wouldn't marry someone who'd repeatedly cheated or employ someone who'd lied and broken the law. I don't accept that Boris Johnson taking us out of the EU and then doing whatever the fuck he likes to achieve his right wing agenda is a matter of opinion and I haven't seen anything that suggests it's ok or it will be ok. These things creep up slowly on us unless we notice and stop it.

Maybe it's too late and the country's fucked anyway. But I don't have to accept that as a 'different point of view'.

If there had been any coherent argument about how boris johnson or Brexit was actually going to benefit the majority of people in the country I would be more inclined to cry for a balanced view but there really, really hasn't.

I say all that as someone whose income is in the top 10% ish of the country, too.

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Alanis126 · 20/12/2019 18:49

As for.Corbyn being slated for not condemning IRA terrorism in isolation. If he hd actually supported the IRA wouldn't it be a logical move on his part to join Sinn Fein or become a terrorist himself? The right wing press used the fact he had met Sinn Fein members (as did the Major and Blair governments) to try to covertly imply that IRA terrorism was worse than say that perpetrated by Loyalist terrorists murdering Nationalists. The truth is, as England turns into a more and more rabidly right-wing jingoistic country which disdains foreigners one of the ugly strains that is being validated is anti-Irish sentiment which people use the appalling atrocities of the IRA to justify. There is also a seam of thinking that the British Armed Forces are above the law and there are those who think that for example the soldiers who shot dead unarmed civilians on Bloody Sunday do not deserve prosecution. Johnson is as happy to have the.votes of those who think like this as he is to have those of the caller who I heard on LBC yesterday saying how there were too many.foreigners in Britain

OP posts:
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MarySidney · 20/12/2019 19:49

.....they are no longer a representative of their constituency.

When all the Remain MPs were failing to represent the views of their Leave constituencies, we were told they didn't have to.

The Brexit Bill will go through, with at least an 80 vote majority. As all Tory MP’s have pledged to support The Great Leader, there’s no need for Parliament to meet at all. Is there?

It's the job of government to put into effect the policies they were elected on.
If Labour had got in with an 80 seat majority, would it have been ok for them to use that majority to push through policies and legislation that non-Labour voters didn't agree with?

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BubblesBuddy · 21/12/2019 08:45

Every government we have had since time immemorial puts its own agenda into legislation with a majorly government! This isn’t new.

What is new is the idea that MPs have to have a mandate from their constituents for every vote. They are not directly representative of constituency residents. How can they know their views? Many constituencies get 66% turnout. Even with a majorly of those voting for the MP, that doesn’t mean, and cannot mean, it’s inky their views that count.

I strongly suggest some people on here need to study political systems in the UK to understand the relationship between MPs and their constituencies and their role in Parliament. Throughout history the defeated party’s supporters have been fearful. However at the moment the defeated party is too far left and not promoting policies that a majority can support. They must change and take back the middle ground especially to represent the aspirational.

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BubblesBuddy · 21/12/2019 08:46

It’s inky!! It’s only their views that count.

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Devereux1 · 21/12/2019 09:03

ThePlantsitter
But there comes a point when people are voting for things that should not be accepted as 'point of view'.
Who decides this Plantsitter?
It's a personal decision isn't it.

I'm confused. Your first post suggested you didn't think people should be allowed to vote on some subjects which were deemed unacceptable as a 'point of view'. Do you mean that? Or do you just mean each individual can view someone else's point of view as unacceptable?

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ThePlantsitter · 21/12/2019 10:10

I meant the second. The truth is we reached the point of this election because politicians told lies and broke the law and that has been ignored.

What I mean is that telling the OP to squash how she's feeling and make her peace with others' opinions, as you suggested, is not necessarily the right course of action if her moral sense is telling her otherwise.

I just wrote a long post explaining my position but deleted it and am now bowing out of this conversation as it is not good for my mental to get into these threads on mumsnet and I keep doing it!!

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Devereux1 · 21/12/2019 10:20

ThePlantsitter

Just in case you see this, since you mentioned your mental health, I stand by my post completely.

Arguing against people when one is loaded with pre-conceived ideas is maddening and useless to do, and must be even more maddening in one's head to do in the first place!

Even your belief which you state as a point of fact, is a great example of this: The truth is we reached the point of this election because politicians told lies and broke the law and that has been ignored.

It's not "the truth" is it? It's your personal view. We reached this election because of lots of reasons, not just what you feel.

Try and not load your position onto others from the outset. Listen to what they say, don't rephrase what they say using exaggerating language (I didn't say "squash how she's feeling", did I?), and you'll find your interaction with the world will improve.

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rudolfsquiffy · 21/12/2019 10:26

I'm thinking about getting more involved in politics at grass roots rather than complaining on Facebook and to friends and family.

Would that work for you?

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ThePlantsitter · 21/12/2019 11:09

Devereux1 of course I'm still here. I find your tone patronising in the extreme and your arguing style reframes what I say as hysterical and what you say as reasonable.

Boris Johnson has lied and broken the law. The leave campaign has lied and broken the law. Both proven. We are where we sre because laws have been broken with no consequences. Those are facts and therefore the truth.

By saying 'try not to load your position onto others from the outset' that is exactly what you are doing yourself both in condescending tone and presumptive content. It is maddening.

It doesn't matter what I think because we are where we are. Presenting fact as point of view is what got us here.

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Devereux1 · 21/12/2019 11:30

ThePlantsitter
I find your tone patronising in the extreme and your arguing style reframes what I say as hysterical and what you say as reasonable.

So you don't like that you feel I am coming across as reasonable, and you are coming across as hysterical...?

By saying 'try not to load your position onto others from the outset' that is exactly what you are doing yourself both in condescending tone and presumptive content. It is maddening.

What position exactly am I loading onto you by recommending you listen to people and don't assume what they know, and don't exaggerate what they say?

Hmm

Vote Leave was found to have broken electoral law, yes, as were the GMB and Unison, the Remain campaign Best For our Future and the Liberal Democrats.

So, as I already pointed to you, we haven't reached here through just the Vote Leave contravention you stated. As I said, there are many, many reasons that did. Picking one, focusing on that only, and ignoring reality isn't good for anyone's mental health.

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ThePlantsitter · 21/12/2019 11:54

No. I don't like that you are insinuating you are reasonable and I am hysterical by what you choose to engage with and misrepresent.

You are painting yourself as non partisan but you are not willing to broach the subject of the fact our prime minister broke the law for his own ends and has lied so many times it's not even worth numbering them. That he is already reneging on his electoral promises (eg living wage). You're discounting those facts as opinion. They are not.

You're a good rhetorician, I'll give you that. By painting yourself as the teacher to us all you're giving a really good demonstration of how oppressive regimes take hold and are perpetuated by good citizens. No critical thinking people! Everything will be OK!

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